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Axis dynos are pretty good at simulating real world conditions if you set them up correctly, though I'm always a fan of making corrections based on data in the "real world" after the fact, if necessary. They generate wind speed directly proportional to wheel speed and throw it at the front of the bike. I actually get ram air compensation up north of 80mph, and it simulates drag (almost too aggressively on my set-up!). The wind is aggressive enough that I have to hide behind the screen on big pulls. :)

This customer will likely show up with a good, unrestricted base map. I'll smooth everything out unified to get a good baseline, play with injector balance, then move timing around to see what it likes. Once I have an established good baseline, I'll see what autotune does to the balance un-unified (provided the customer doesn't mid), compare what it does to AFR/power, and correct afr if necessary. The dyno will repeat well under 1% so long as run conditions are held even, so I'll know exactly what sort of power differences are occurring, and where.

If I'm using woolich stuff and the customer has the AT hardware, I'll usually make successive pulls in various conditions to let it get about 95-97% of the work done. After that, I'm looking at the actual torque output vs specific changes in timing, AFR, and injector balance... and usually playing with different ETV mapping for different modes to allow for different power delivery strategies. 99% of the folks around here are primarily straight lining, and there is a lot of advantage to be had in a bike that drives hard off the midrange but doesn't wheelie excessively. We are at a fairly high altitude (4300ft), so we can be more aggressive here than most... but traveling down to low elevation events requires a different mode/approach. It's always a balancing act at these power levels, until you add a little swingarm. As far as AT goes, it's not bad with the woolich stuff, and it does get it 97%+ there every time... but getting that last little bit requires precision measurement under controlled conditions. Most AT is rather terrible at honing in on that last little bit, and without measurement devices you can't tell anyway. Trying to feel a 2hp difference at 200hp peak is extremely difficult for us mortals. Trying to observe a change in trap speed can also be difficult, as real world conditions constantly change (rider errors, road conditions, weather, etc). A little bit of temperature or wind skews it all to hell, for better or worse. There is more MPH in the half mile to be had by good body position than there is in injector balance, for most people. ;) And to add one more thing to the mix: what "feels" fast isn't always necessarily the case. I can put a big hole in the powerband right before peak torque, make the same peak HP, and the bike feels like some rowdy firebreathing animal... where smooth torque over the same area will actually feel slower, but yield consistently better trap MPH.

My prediction is that it won't do much. After all the work to get the baseline 98-99% of the power will be there (save what you could get from actual, individual cylinder tuning... which no one wants to sensor up/pay for in dyno time). I'm not saying there isn't power to be had with injector balance, not at all, just that letting autotune have at it after I've already tweaked it will likely yield diminishing returns. If improvements do show themselves at that point, it will be in the 1-2% magnitude, and almost exclusively after 8K rpm... which comes out to 2-4hp at peak. Once an AFR is correct, there is very little change in power output within a relatively large range around said AFR. If a motor makes best power at, let's say, 12.9:1 (.88 lambda), it will stay within 99% of that power within a half AFR point (+/- .03 lambda). Now, there are some things going on here with charge cooling and charge air density/composition that realize some gains, but that has less to do with AFR and more to do with WHERE and how much fuel is being introduced relative to its position from the intake valve. This is a dark, deep rabbit hole my friend. :)
 

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Discussion Starter · #63 ·

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Discussion Starter · #64 ·
Axis dynos are pretty good at simulating real world conditions if you set them up correctly, though I'm always a fan of making corrections based on data in the "real world" after the fact, if necessary. They generate wind speed directly proportional to wheel speed and throw it at the front of the bike. I actually get ram air compensation up north of 80mph, and it simulates drag (almost too aggressively on my set-up!). The wind is aggressive enough that I have to hide behind the screen on big pulls. :)

This customer will likely show up with a good, unrestricted base map. I'll smooth everything out unified to get a good baseline, play with injector balance, then move timing around to see what it likes. Once I have an established good baseline, I'll see what autotune does to the balance un-unified (provided the customer doesn't mid), compare what it does to AFR/power, and correct afr if necessary. The dyno will repeat well under 1% so long as run conditions are held even, so I'll know exactly what sort of power differences are occurring, and where.

If I'm using woolich stuff and the customer has the AT hardware, I'll usually make successive pulls in various conditions to let it get about 95-97% of the work done. After that, I'm looking at the actual torque output vs specific changes in timing, AFR, and injector balance... and usually playing with different ETV mapping for different modes to allow for different power delivery strategies. 99% of the folks around here are primarily straight lining, and there is a lot of advantage to be had in a bike that drives hard off the midrange but doesn't wheelie excessively. We are at a fairly high altitude (4300ft), so we can be more aggressive here than most... but traveling down to low elevation events requires a different mode/approach. It's always a balancing act at these power levels, until you add a little swingarm. As far as AT goes, it's not bad with the woolich stuff, and it does get it 97%+ there every time... but getting that last little bit requires precision measurement under controlled conditions. Most AT is rather terrible at honing in on that last little bit, and without measurement devices you can't tell anyway. Trying to feel a 2hp difference at 200hp peak is extremely difficult for us mortals. Trying to observe a change in trap speed can also be difficult, as real world conditions constantly change (rider errors, road conditions, weather, etc). A little bit of temperature or wind skews it all to hell, for better or worse. There is more MPH in the half mile to be had by good body position than there is in injector balance, for most people. ;) And to add one more thing to the mix: what "feels" fast isn't always necessarily the case. I can put a big hole in the powerband right before peak torque, make the same peak HP, and the bike feels like some rowdy firebreathing animal... where smooth torque over the same area will actually feel slower, but yield consistently better trap MPH.

My prediction is that it won't do much. After all the work to get the baseline 98-99% of the power will be there (save what you could get from actual, individual cylinder tuning... which no one wants to sensor up/pay for in dyno time). I'm not saying there isn't power to be had with injector balance, not at all, just that letting autotune have at it after I've already tweaked it will likely yield diminishing returns. If improvements do show themselves at that point, it will be in the 1-2% magnitude, and almost exclusively after 8K rpm... which comes out to 2-4hp at peak. Once an AFR is correct, there is very little change in power output within a relatively large range around said AFR. If a motor makes best power at, let's say, 12.9:1 (.88 lambda), it will stay within 99% of that power within a half AFR point (+/- .03 lambda). Now, there are some things going on here with charge cooling and charge air density/composition that realize some gains, but that has less to do with AFR and more to do with WHERE and how much fuel is being introduced relative to its position from the intake valve. This is a dark, deep rabbit hole my friend. :)
Sounds like you know your shit inside out so it will be interesting to see your results. Hopefully the customer won't object to the experiment. Being a dyno customer myself on so many occasions all I wanted to see was big numbers and a power/torque curve higher and smoother throughout the rev range. Most of the time I would get on my bike and not really notice much difference to be honest. It was the piece of paper with the printout I wanted to see at the end or the dyno screen with the numbers! I have ridden 54,000kms on my ZX-10R almost all riding the same 114km journey to and from work so I am used to the same amount of throttle for each corner or straight and the F map I use all the time, now using the upper & lower injector tune it is carrying more speed & pulls harder than before at the same corner or straight. Number 1 - I am having fun and the speed increase feels bloody good.

I would love to see the fan you use to replicate 240km/h of ram air!!! That must be a beast. I am definitely tucked in behind my screen at that speed. I understand what you mean about the bike feeling "faster", My Yamaha R1M & even my old Honda VTR1000 SP1/RC51 both feel like your not going that fast but you look at the speed and it is smooth fast speed & the bikes do it really easy.

Have you done any tuning on the 2020-22 Ducati V2? I have a 2022 Ducati Panigale V2 Troy Bayliss edition on order and due in about another month. I already have the ridiculously priced Akrapovic slip on exhaust ready to install & the dealer said I should try the Akrapovic map that it comes with before I go installing Woolich Autotune because they think that map is so good. I have asked Woolich and confirmed it has the upper & lower injectors so based on the ZX-10R results I am dying to do that to it, using the Ducati Akrapovic map as a base. Have you seen the Ducati Akrapovic map compared to the stock map? Is it any good?

Cheers

Ash
 

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Not a lot of Duc love around here... most of the customer base are Harleys or Japanese supersports. We did have a 2016 Panigale up at the last half mile runway event... did pretty well for a bike that doesn't advertise straight line performance. :)

I'm not a huge fan of canned maps, honestly. Not necessarily because they are all bad, but it usually takes longer to modify something than it does to just develop a custom map from the base. 9 out of ten times the generic maps are ok, but not particularly outstanding. Again, we are talking about 2-3% kind of stuff, so everyone has an opinion. :)
 

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Discussion Starter · #66 ·
Not a lot of Duc love around here... most of the customer base are Harleys or Japanese supersports. We did have a 2016 Panigale up at the last half mile runway event... did pretty well for a bike that doesn't advertise straight line performance. :)

I'm not a huge fan of canned maps, honestly. Not necessarily because they are all bad, but it usually takes longer to modify something than it does to just develop a custom map from the base. 9 out of ten times the generic maps are ok, but not particularly outstanding. Again, we are talking about 2-3% kind of stuff, so everyone has an opinion. :)
Let us all know how your tune goes, it will be interesting to see your results. This will be my 1st Ducati so I will have to go with the Akrapovic map to keep my new bike warranty but won't be able to stop myself adding Woolich Autotune in the near future, the results are too good to pass up.

Cheers
 

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No doubt... given the complexity of the ECU, flashing time, and the shear number of maps (and their crazy resolution), the autotuner is a huge time saver when you are using the woolich interface, even on the dyno... it cuts the development time in half, easily.
 

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Yes mine is a 2016 ZX-10R so the fuel maps will just copy and paste across to the RR. Give it a try and tell me I haven't found something good. Go 1st gear redline, 2nd redline to whatever is safe to do where you are and tell me it doesn't pull harder than ever. I reckon 20% better at a guess.

Sorry can't help with the starter issue!
It will fully depend on the bikes overall setup, i just replaced my starter so while i was in there i cleaned and recharged my k&n race filter, did a lil intake box smoothing mods and just kinda double checked everything, but im now running stock exhaust but its green anodized and no cat with all the emissions shit off and the K&N filter, ram air flap gone exup gone and block offs, so different than what others are running, just got sick of my slip on exhausts getting ground down when i would get too low around corners so gonna have to go with a higher mounted setup but for now stock
 

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Discussion Starter · #74 ·
It will fully depend on the bikes overall setup, i just replaced my starter so while i was in there i cleaned and recharged my k&n race filter, did a lil intake box smoothing mods and just kinda double checked everything, but im now running stock exhaust but its green anodized and no cat with all the emissions shit off and the K&N filter, ram air flap gone exup gone and block offs, so different than what others are running, just got sick of my slip on exhausts getting ground down when i would get too low around corners so gonna have to go with a higher mounted setup but for now stock
So what do you think of my maps? I definitely found something good!!!
 

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Got that dyno tune in on Saturday... I can say that beyond initially adjusting the injector split to around 50/50 there wasn't much of a noticeable/measurable increase in performance by doing upper/lower injector autotunes. I did about 3-4 autotune cycles with the maps not unitfied, and had AFR corrections down under .1 of an AFR point. I did see just a smidge of gains under 9K rpm, but that could possibly be attributed the AFR getting closer to ideal and/or the motor loosening up a bit... I probably ran that bastard harder than it had ever been at that point. This was a 2021 with an Akra slip on... otherwise low miles and completely stock. We were doing a little exploring with the Woolich software... at that point there were still a few questions on which maps and settings did what (there were 10 different ETV maps, with 2-6 submaps each. Yikes). Torque curve was a little lumpy IMO... there are definitely some resonance things going on with the stock header/slip-on combination. We tried some velocity stacks on sunday, and it amplified the 'lumpiness' quite a bit... this bike does not like you just messing with one aspect of the intake/exhaust.

Still, this thing is stronk up top, for sure.
 

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Discussion Starter · #76 ·
Good results, haven't seen a 200+ HP on a USA dyno. Imagine with block off plates and all the emissions garbage gone as well. K&N filter? Or just slip on? Was that with the upper & lower injectors separate?

On the upper & lower injector - didn't you see them drift apart in the TPS maps? The lower had less fuel & the upper had alot more at higher RPM on my autotunes.

Thanks for the update
 

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Good results, haven't seen a 200+ HP on a USA dyno. Imagine with block off plates and all the emissions garbage gone as well. K&N filter? Or just slip on? Was that with the upper & lower injectors separate?

On the upper & lower injector - didn't you see them drift apart in the TPS maps? The lower had less fuel & the upper had alot more at higher RPM on my autotunes.

Thanks for the update
Curious what exhaust are you running? Midrange is going to benefit from full exhaust and different cross-over ports. Top-end HP not so much from what I've seen on this forum.
Mike
 

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Good results, haven't seen a 200+ HP on a USA dyno. Imagine with block off plates and all the emissions garbage gone as well. K&N filter? Or just slip on? Was that with the upper & lower injectors separate?

On the upper & lower injector - didn't you see them drift apart in the TPS maps? The lower had less fuel & the upper had alot more at higher RPM on my autotunes.

Thanks for the update
Mine reads a touch higher than most in 4th gear.... ram air becomes a real thing on this dyno. It had the PAIR system deleted (or whatever Team Green calls it) to facilitate accurate 02 readings, but the filter/emissions stuff was all stock. 50/50 split at peak was about what it wanted on this fuel. I may not have seen a lot of correction with the autotune, but we started with quite a bit more split (and taper) than stock right from the get go.... he was using my friend's (really) well tuned 5th gen settings as a baseline.

As far as injector split goes, every set up has a certain spot where they like to start crossing over. I can't recall exactly where it is on that bike from memory, but I slowly start bringing in the uppers at about 1/3rd max rpm, and the max split is usually achieved by about 2/3rds redline (all WOT). To facilitate smoothness I will usually taper it off from the 100%tps down to 25-40%tps... depends on how it feels. So far the Kawis don't seem to like anything more than 50/50 at max... the couple GSXRs I've done show gains all the way into the 70/30 range for some reason. Fuel type messes with this a little bit too.

But as a general rule, high rpm/load favors the injector being further away from the intake valve. Low rpm responsiveness and idle quality like the injector close to the valve. All within reason, of course.
 

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Curious what exhaust are you running? Midrange is going to benefit from full exhaust and different cross-over ports. Top-end HP not so much from what I've seen on this forum.
Mike
Truth. The 5th gen we based a lot of this on is running the Akra header as well. It was worth only 1-2% up top over a stock header, but it did wonderful things to the midrange, filling in those torque gaps. It also responded much, much better to velocity stack changes.
 

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Discussion Starter · #80 ·
Curious what exhaust are you running? Midrange is going to benefit from full exhaust and different cross-over ports. Top-end HP not so much from what I've seen on this forum.
Mike
I had mine made in the UK,
Pro-Race Exhaust Systems - it is a copy more or less of the SC Project or Austin Racing style cat delete with the factory headers. Every other bike I have always forked out for the Akrapovic & again just recently for my Ducati I am waiting for. On the ZX-10R I wanted the rear footrests & the exhaust hanger gone so I was looking at those exhausts above but when I looked at it I just thought get fucked, I am not paying $1500-2000 for half a metre of pipe. Google found them for me and I emailed them and said I want this and they made it. Worked out about $400 Aussie dollars at the time.

When I bought the ZX-10R I was going to leave it standard but as usual I couldn't help myself, AIM MXK10 dash, Woolich Racing Autotune, K&N filter, block off plates & AIS removed. I love the little exhaust, it is loud which on the road is required, people just get out of my way!!! lol.

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