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Discussion Starter #1
I was going to have my bike tuned on a dyno at the end of this month until I heard about the WEGO III. I have an 07 ZX-10 with basic simple mods: removed secndary intake butterflies, K&N air filter, Decat, A&R muffler baffles and a PC3 USB. Thats all I plan to ever really do to the bike.

Now from what I have read about the WEGO III, you put in a target air/fuel ratio and it will create a suggested fuel MAP to upload to the PC. That sounds like a time saver when tuning, and money saver!

Now I am really going to be reliying on this WEGO III to "tune" my bike. I just have a few questions.

1. Where is a good place to put the wideband on an 07 ZX-10?. In past tuning expierences, I have always put a wideband senor roughly 12-16" away from the header/manifold flange and put it in the 9-3 position (at all costs the 11-1 position). I do not have a cat on the bike anymore so placement would have to go anywhere between the cat box where it joins into 1 and the split where it goes into 2 to the mufflers.

2. What is a good target air fuel ratio number on a NA bike? I have tuned plenty of boosted cars before and tune them on the 11.4-11.8 range, richer in that range the better. Just didnt know a good safe number to go with on an NA. Obviously a final tune/dyno pull would be the best method to see what my target air fuel ration should be. For example, I would rather make 360hp at 11.6 rather than 361hp at 11.9. Running wideband that tight on the number just isnt worth the 1hp increase. But I am just trying to get an idea here whats a safe range for an NA bike with my mods.

3. I would like to visually see the wideband number whe riding. It looks like the WEGO III has a very wierd diplay box that looks like will bring out my creative side to moutning the box. Anyone have any pics of the diplay installed in riding view to give me some ideas?


Thank you for your time
 

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Discussion Starter #2
After searching, it seems 12.4 range is a good WOT number and I guess installing sensor as close to exhast valve on an NA motor is the best
 

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Gen2 Ripper
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Install it either in one of the header collectors or in the mid pipe. I wouldn't put the sensor any further back than the mid pipe.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
Install it either in one of the header collectors or in the mid pipe. I wouldn't put the sensor any further back than the mid pipe.
Installing in only 1 header collector will result in only 2 banks being monitored instead of 4... correct? Isnt that a bad thing? I understand I am controlling 4 banks at a time and not 2 at a time but I was just curious
 

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What would be nice to know is if one bank has a tendency to run leaner then the other. When I tune boosted GM LS motors I put the wideband in the bank 1 collector as it tends to run leaner then bank 2. I will be installing PCV, Quickshift and Autotune this weekend and will be putting the wideband O2 at the merge of the two banks. IMO the response time will be fine that far back. If you look at most Dynojet Dyno's the wideband probe only goes in the exhaust about 12-16" and it on a pump sucking the exhaust out to the actual sensor.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Isn't that a lite rich? I always heard 13.1 on a dyno which would be equal to 13.5 under ram air?
13.5 under ram air? HUH????????

In my expierence of tuning, ram air has NOTHING to do with tuning of a motor. Air fuel mixture is air fuel mixture no matter how much or little ram air you have. If anything, ram air, you would want to increase fuel, not lean it out. I may be going out on a limb here but do you have a clue what your talking about?

I have never tuned a bike so I could be wrong here but I dont know... that makes NO SENSE what so ever...
 

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Installing in only 1 header collector will result in only 2 banks being monitored instead of 4... correct? Isnt that a bad thing? I understand I am controlling 4 banks at a time and not 2 at a time but I was just curious
Yes I would install it in the midpipe. Past the point where they all come together. That's where the bungs Welded into my exhaust.
 

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I think what he is trying to say is if you tune it on a dyno to say 13.1 afr at say 12,000rpm and 100% throttle postion and then take it out on the street you will have added airflow from the ram air at the same 12,000 rpm and 100% throttle position hence leaning the afr to 13.5 I think.
 

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13.5 under ram air? HUH????????

In my expierence of tuning, ram air has NOTHING to do with tuning of a motor. Air fuel mixture is air fuel mixture no matter how much or little ram air you have. If anything, ram air, you would want to increase fuel, not lean it out. I may be going out on a limb here but do you have a clue what your talking about?

I have never tuned a bike so I could be wrong here but I dont know... that makes NO SENSE what so ever...
What I was trying to say is if u tune on the dyno no air is being forced in. Now when your going down the road at 80mph there's more air being forced in than on the dyno. This will lean it out a little. But if u have something hooked up while your riding to get a reading like a wideband then this doesn't matter. So my bad!
 

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Discussion Starter #12
What I was trying to say is if u tune on the dyno no air is being forced in. Now when your going down the road at 80mph there's more air being forced in than on the dyno. This will lean it out a little. But if u have something hooked up while your riding to get a reading like a wideband then this doesn't matter. So my bad!
Actually it my bad. Your saying 13.5 is the traget A/F mixture?
 

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Gen2 Ripper
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Thats not what he is saying(13.5 target). Hes saying if tuned on a DYNO only, no auto tune on road later, the ram air effect while riding on the street WILL lean it out possibly a half point. Auto tune will compensate so really diregard if using auto tune. 13.1 Is fine as a set target AFR for your auto tune on pump gas. There's a big thread on here somewhere about using/programming the auto tune equipment.
And yes, individual cylinders do vary slightly. One a LITTLE richer or leaner than the other but not drastic. My exhaust setup dictated where I could cleanly, easily access a bung for my wideband sensors which was my left header collector. There isn't much of a difference having it there or in mid pipe. Ideally, placing EGT sensors or wideband sensors in each header tube and adjust each cylinder would be the way to go and KIT ecu and some "hacked" ECU software allows for this but that is just OVERKILL on a street vehicle. My point is simply that it can be done but WHY. All you need to do is have the single wideband sensor before a cat if you have one and be no further back than the midpipe. Target AFR is up to the rider in what he is seeking...richer for cooler engine temps and safer tune. Or, leaner for more power and a little better fuel economy. 12.8-13.5 would be the range you can start in and go from there adjusting to your liking.
Dyno tuning and choosing an AFR targer is where I think you got a bit confused. You got everything else.:thumbsup:
 

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Speed Freak
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I'll put my 2 cents in here.....



on the dyno you will want to tune for peak power, this usually ranged anywhere from 12.8-13.2 most of the time 13.0-13.1 you will have to find where your bike makes peak power first with what air fuel.

For everything under 80% you want to lean it out slightly more and even more so you really want to lean it out where your "cruising" speeds will be, while your on the dyno stick the bike in what ever gear you cruise around in, I cruise in 6ths on the street going 60-90mph which equals say 4-7000 rpm's and it takes anywehre from 2-5-10-20 throttle percent to cruise at that speed, you want to keep that area pretty lean closer to 14.5:1 this will keep your engine nice and crisp keeping your MPG and extra carbon/fuel out of your bike.

Now if your bike runs hot during those speeds and TPS's you can richen it up a lil but I would stay in the 14.0-14.5 range.



NOWWW if your really wanting a great street tune after you run the bike on the dyno. Say your peak power on the dyno is 13.0:1 if you are doing anything above about 140mph your air fuel will change with the ram air. I have done tests and shown UP to .5 difference in air fuel readings but about .4 of a air fuel point.
SOOO after you get your peak power out of your bike say 13.0 go ahead and just richen up the 10-13k area in the power commander to about 12.5-12.7:1 and this will keep your bike at a nice air fuel while on the street.



just my $.02
 

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I'll put my 2 cents in here.....



on the dyno you will want to tune for peak power, this usually ranged anywhere from 12.8-13.2 most of the time 13.0-13.1 you will have to find where your bike makes peak power first with what air fuel.

For everything under 80% you want to lean it out slightly more and even more so you really want to lean it out where your "cruising" speeds will be, while your on the dyno stick the bike in what ever gear you cruise around in, I cruise in 6ths on the street going 60-90mph which equals say 4-7000 rpm's and it takes anywehre from 2-5-10-20 throttle percent to cruise at that speed, you want to keep that area pretty lean closer to 14.5:1 this will keep your engine nice and crisp keeping your MPG and extra carbon/fuel out of your bike.

Now if your bike runs hot during those speeds and TPS's you can richen it up a lil but I would stay in the 14.0-14.5 range.



NOWWW if your really wanting a great street tune after you run the bike on the dyno. Say your peak power on the dyno is 13.0:1 if you are doing anything above about 140mph your air fuel will change with the ram air. I have done tests and shown UP to .5 difference in air fuel readings but about .4 of a air fuel point.
SOOO after you get your peak power out of your bike say 13.0 go ahead and just richen up the 10-13k area in the power commander to about 12.5-12.7:1 and this will keep your bike at a nice air fuel while on the street.



just my $.02
:+1:

:ayyy:
 

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Discussion Starter #16 (Edited)
Awesome advice!!!! Perfectly explained thank you.

Now I have one question left. Where is everyone installing there widebands? I have no cat on my bike anymore. I would like to see pics or here ideas more for clearance reasons. Just trying to find a good location.

Also, where is the best price advertised for these things? Vendor on the site? Im finding it for $351.75 shipped from Custom Performance Cycle
 

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a/f ratio and ram air

there really is no "target" a/f ratio to tune for. u dont tune a engine to a a/f ratio, u tune the a/f to the engine. the ratios mentioned will get u in a tuneable range, but there is not a set in stone max power a/f for every engine, they vary. if its 14.0, then thats what it is, now dont scream lean on me cause a lean engine, or rich, wont max horsepower, its neither on that motor, its perfect. u tune for all the power, all thru the powerband, and that is exactly what u get on the road also without compensations or adjustments. the air temp. sensor in the airbox cools at high speed from increased flow, as in ram air, sends a signal the ecu reads as a change in air density and it adds fuel. u cant tell your motor what it wants, it has to tell u. as far as changing a/f from best power on the dyno, to compensate for a road condition, forget it, the engineers, sensors, and ecu already have it covered, their autotune.
 

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there really is no "target" a/f ratio to tune for. U dont tune a engine to a a/f ratio, u tune the a/f to the engine. The ratios mentioned will get u in a tuneable range, but there is not a set in stone max power a/f for every engine, they vary. If its 14.0, then thats what it is, now dont scream lean on me cause a lean engine, or rich, wont max horsepower, its neither on that motor, its perfect. U tune for all the power, all thru the powerband, and that is exactly what u get on the road also without compensations or adjustments. The air temp. Sensor in the airbox cools at high speed from increased flow, as in ram air, sends a signal the ecu reads as a change in air density and it adds fuel. U cant tell your motor what it wants, it has to tell u. As far as changing a/f from best power on the dyno, to compensate for a road condition, forget it, the engineers, sensors, and ecu already have it covered, their autotune.
:+1:
 
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