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Discussion Starter #1
Hello,

I had a weird fuel pump issue last friday (engine went dead while cruising thru a village, then some no pump prime, prime but stop, etc. I rode home without any problems), and my car mechanic friend asked his bike mech friend who told him he thinks that my fuel pump dying because of the mandatory ethanol content of the fuel. So I took apart the bike. Of course no rust in my tank, the pump looks good too - that not means much of course - , not a hint of any priming issue since; the dirt on the pickup filter was negligible, so I don't think that the pump is shot. Will have it checked of course. While I was there I thought that checking the air filter is a good idea so teared down that too, and.. so on. It's a bit sad thing to see harm that previous owner(s) did with the bike.

Removed the air injection valve to disable the decel popping - using my baffle without the silencing insert antisocial enough, decel popping makes me roll the throttle on and off...

When I removed the air ducts which take the air from the frame to airbox I saw that those rubber ducts are very narrow unlike the frame - did anyone cut off the narrow section of them to see if the engine breathes better due the larger "diameter"? (I'm curious but having no spares I decided to leave them original) If water from the RAM air hole can escape from the frame on the bottom could not much of a problem.

Thinking about removing the secondary throttle plates, but if the ECU also leans the fuel mixture when closing them in 6th gear to restrict the top speed, then it wouldn't make any sense (I removed them from my ex R1 RN12 without any issues but that means nothing for this bike)

Replacing the fuel pump, I have some options, I think I can buy a walbro, or for around half of that price I can get a lesser brand. Will check or have it checked first for pressure, and will also check the kill switch on the handlebar as I read here that could be a problem (but when I tried it worked like it should).

I also want to adjust my rear ride height up a bit to make the bike to turn in a bit faster.
 

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Discussion Starter #2
Sorry, I didn't meant Mod(erator)s, one shouldn't speak about the 'devil', especially at squid 'rank'... ;)

--

So far I ditched KLEEN valve, the secondary throttle plates (7 voted for it, of course 1 screw almost screwed it, but with the use of a small headed flat screwdriver as chisel I removed that too and cleaned the intake port from debris), made a same size ring as the OEM from a pipe with a saw to raise rear ride height, and used both, cleaned the air ducts, box, filter (just the bugs from it).

My friend called that he thinks my fuel pump will die soon, but I put back the tank and refueled it anyway, to have it run so I can check for codes. Sprayed all relay box connectors with contact cleaner (wasn't necessary). I think I will talk with the fuel pump shop rep to have them check my pump, and if it's going bad I'll have it replaced - I don't want to risk getting stranded hundreds of kms from home.

Results so far (not much):
The lack of secondary plates eliminated the rpm hang up (to 1500 rpm from idle) at warmup when I blip the throttle, and also made the idle rpm too low when the coolant temp reached the minimum (40°C) that displayed on the dash, so I had to adjust it. I will test ride it when weather allows it.

No more flat footed ride with the new seat height.. (I already swapped the shock spring from a zx 636 shock as the stock was notoriously soft on 2nd gen).
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Just reporting back.

I rode around 120 kms with a buddy of mine (just in case the bike dies again), but it was problem-free, so I couldn't get closer to what caused that first-last fuel pump stopping issue.

On slippery asphalt the rear tyre spinned easily, but I don't think that's because the higher rear ride height. Apart from that I experienced some discomfort with this new setup, with a bit more agile response to steering input. I'll decide on the next few rides if that agility worth the negatives (not flat footed at stops, more weight on the arms, etc.), or I will lower it back and learn to ride better instead (pivot steering).

The ditching of KLEEN didn't make all the popping go away, but reduced it to a single spot around 2300 rpm, intensity of it depends on the speed of the deceleration (slow = small pop or none).

The removal of the secondaries: it seems that the engine reacts better to the throttle input below 6000 rpm, especially in the lower gears, but above 6000 in the higher gears (accelerating hard) the throttle response suggested that the mixture a bit leaner than needed (not the fall on it's face lean).
 

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Discussion Starter #4
Report back again.

I took my fuel pump assembly to a shop and the guy tested it very well - he said he wanted to find a reason to find the pump bad and sell me a replacement, but couldn't, so I have to find the problem's source somewhere else. And he did that for free..

So I wanted to eliminate the O2 sensors too from the possible causes, so I checked them, as I have a #33 FI code which is the #1 oxy sensor, and even if I swapped with the other (which is working fine - I tested them, the #1 O2 has a problem with it's heating coil but #2 OK), and the code was still #33, checked the harness to the ECU connector and it was also fine.. So I cleaned the sensors , put them back but disconnected them, insulated the harness connectors with dielectric grease, rubber glove fingers & zip ties, took out the O2 heating fuse, and rode another 200 kms with my gen2. Worked well, but the stumbling problem appeared a few times again: giving a handful of throttle @ mid rpm-s (around 4000-6000) it was like switched off until I backed down the throttle. Thinking about it it is most likely the TPS sensor, and maybe it can make the ECU to completely shut off the fuel and / or ignition.. so I checked the repair manual just to find out, that unlike for my ex-R1 RN12 for which was a TPS sensor recall, @ kawasaki they thought that much better to have replace the complete throttle assy for around $2000 than just the sensor(s). Fook them... So my next task to check the TPS sensor & also check out if I can replace only the sensor. (on my ex Speed Triple, the service manual had instructions to replace and adjust the TPS, I dont think that kawi's have to have "factory precision" )

Other culprit for the shut-off (fuel sys) could be the kill-switch, but I checked it and it was fine, I cleaned it anyway and assembled.

The tip-over switch also can kill the engine (ign/fueling), but I don't think that could be the cause.

Fuel pressure regulator - but that was checked by the guy as soon as I gave him the pump assy.

ECU - if that is the cause I don't think that could be tested.

I liked Kawasaki before, as my older (ex) ones gave me many good memories, but I'm starting to be a bit disappointed in my choice. I hope I can sort it out and only the good times will roll instead of the bitter taste (of defects by design).
 

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Discussion Starter #6
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The clutch switch or the clutch lever wasn't the OEM - I found many signs that my bike was a crashed example - so even if it worked fine as a switch, it couldn't do it's job because the pin which let out or pushed back by the lever was too long. Cut off 1,5 mm from it, and the engine can start in gear w/ the clutch lever pulled .

The stalling issue - after a flawless operation last friday - yesterday happened again - I was passing some cars then the engine died suddenly. (about 10 km distance from the fuel station). Coasted to the side of the road. Ign off, then on, pump primed, engine started and it was reluctant to rev in neutral, but after a dozen blips it hit the rev limiter fine (normally I never do that with my motors). So I continued the trip, but later every time I've tried to accelerate a bit harder (mostly in 6th - Some posted that their gen2 stumbled in 2nd for a few moments then took off - mine doesn't took off, I have to back off with the throttle) the engine almost died. So shortened the ride and got home as getting stranded in the middle of nowhere not on my wishlist. For me this makes the fuel pump as the primary suspect even if the guy at the shop couldn't find any problem with it, and next week I wil buy a new one - not the cheapest way to guess, but much cheaper than to get another ECU or throttle assy (TPS), or relay box, and the symptoms point to the pump.
Will report back. I have ex-bike's donor (parts) bike, maybe I'll try it's fuel pump in the 10R - the connector is different but I can crimp some custom wiring for it.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Bought a Walbro GSS342 yesterday. Noname pumps not much cheaper here, brand aftermarket pumps overpriced at the few places where they are avail, but they are rare unlike in the US, so I checked that the pump not a turbine type fake one, the markings, and paid the price.

After some issues (the Walbro is longer) I think I managed to replace my OEM fuel pump with a Walbro GSS342. Had to decide to reuse the OEM plastic housing with the FPR, or ditch it and get an aftermarket one (FPR), and install the pump to the base, then with hoses, clamps etc.

Problems, changes with this setup:
- The fuel level sensor will be higher, so low fuel warning will come earlier - the pump is longer, so OEM plastic housing cannot sit down to the baseplate as with the original pump (116 mm)
- If I would use the oem filter's plastic shield, then the oem housing would sit even higher - I think that it doesn't do too much, so it wont be missed.
- I had to cut 1-2 millimeters from the top of housing's plastic slides so the hole on the metal "poles" of the pump base and the threaded "U" shaped thingy's hole can match (where the pump's earth terminal & the fuel level sensor bolted - it also fixes the plastic housing to the base)
- couldn't use the Walbro connector - too tall for the housing (the FPR right above it) so I crimped terminals on some silicone insulated wires, but I cut down the metal part which hold onto the insulation (to have more flexibility & clearance to route the wires from the connector - still a snug fit because of the FPR) then I insulated & checked the tightness of the terminals to have a good connection and reduce any chance to shorting)

Will check if it works after I get home from work. I hope that it will, and also that those stalls solved by this too - it's a shite feeling when one knows that the bike isn't fully reliable.
 

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I don't know why nobody has commented on your thread the new pump looks good to me, where are you in the world? Kilometres?
 

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Discussion Starter #10
Hello Michael!

I'm in Hungary (a country from the former eastern block of Europe). Kilometres in the clock just above 28000.

The lack of comments not really a problem, maybe the gen2 not an interesting gen nowadays. I 'talk to myself' here only to share my findings, or thoughts as I found most useful those posts that sharing not only a problem, but the solution too if it's solved later.

The Walbro works, but it's way louder than the OEM Mitsubishi (U-TC33 if I remember correctly) I don't know if that's normal as I never heard one before. I've ridden only a few kils a few minutes ago, because when I finished putting the bike together the rain just came. Works like with the OEM pump, and while I haven't experienced sudden stall while I rode, one time the engine stumbled in 2nd gear @ hard acceleration, had to back off the throttle. I read about that problem in the forums with this gen2, most commenters who haven't experienced that, had TRE or similar device on their bikes - and I don't remember that any post mentioned other than 2nd gear for that stumbling)

But last time I rode before the fuel pump change, the engine once shut off completely (but restarted @ first attempt) and later did that stumbling even in sixth gear - so maybe my OEM pump really okay and somewhere else lies the problem. I've seen video with zx636 which stalled because it's ECU overheated, that's unlikely in my case as it wasn't that hot when the problem occured, and also that 636 couldn't be restarted until it's cooled down. (I'm not saying that the cause cannot be the ECU - we will see when I ride more , but not @ friday night as I don't want to push my luck and/or f.ck up any friend's night with bike rescue/transport task :) )

So in short: walbro is somewhat loud - good if the engine suddenly shuts off again to hear if it's fuel delivery related; the stumbling still there so that's not pump related.

I will see what options I have - I should check the FPR too (and the tank cap vent) before I close out the mechanical side of the fuel delivery system. (then comes the relay box - maybe I'll try to use an external relay for the pump to see if the relay fails intermittently)
 

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Discussion Starter #11
The pump swap seems unnecessary, as the intermittent acceleration stumble still there, one time it happened in 1st gear just after taking a left in an intersection - it was a light acceleration.

So yesterday I took out the pump assy, cut a few mils from plastic housing to make room for the suction filter's plastic protector (and to have the filter not sit on the very bottom. Wanted to see if the pumps okay (have a denso from a speed triple, the oem and the walbro, all worked okay in a bike). The denso pump was the weakest, took long time for it to fully displace air from the clear tube I attached to the outlet; the oem pump was a bit better, and faster (I was lazy so I didn't put on the fpr with a hose -that would make the pump work against pressure ~3 bar, then I think the fpr would let out the excess), but the walbro was at another level, I couldn't hold my fingertip to the outlet hose end as the pressure made it to spray. I also had another (speed triple) fuel filter sock, both let the pumps work on their level, so my oem filter doesn't have any invisible clogging (it was very clean visually).

Will go for a ride with my friend, will see if I only have the stumbling, or the intermittent full shut off / stall problem also there. No code apart from my diconnected / unfused O2 sensors, so having this issues is very annoying - I like to go for day long rides far from home, but I cannot while these didn't get solved.

Kawasaki made their TPS sensors unchangeable (at least in the manual; they say that one needs to buy a complete throttle body assy for $$$$), but it looks like (in the service manual of course) the K9 gixxer's TPS mounting hole & voltage range is the same, so if I check TPS sometime and it's faulty I think I give that a shot before I look for another tb-assy.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
We went for a ride with my buddy, and the stumbling problem became repeatable (from intermittent).

It looked like I have the issue when (the disconnected and heating fuse removed) O2 FI codes go away (which shouldn't go away as I made it permanent. From the manual:
"When the engine load is light like at idling or low speed, the ECU determines the injection quantity by calculating from the throttle vacuum (inlet air pressure sensor output voltage) and engine speed (crankshaft sensor output
voltage). This method is called D-J method. As the engine speed increases, and the engine load turns middle to heavy, the ECU determines the injection quantity by calculating from the throttle opening (throttle sensor output voltage) and the engine speed. This method is called α-N method."

I think that the transition between those methods around 4500-5000 rpm, as when I revved the engine to that rpm range in any gear, and anyhow (acceleration and then hold steady, try accelerate thru it slowly or hard), the FI light stopped blinking and the bike surged with steady throttle, stumbled lightly @ light acceleration, and stumbled hard - almost like stall like if you kill the engine and while engine braking you open the throttle - when I've tried accelerate hard. Always recovered, the more steady I held the throttle the faster. After 3-4 stumbles it even accepted full throttle, but when the speed become steadier from acceleration or some deceleration, the FI blinking came back and only gone away if I tried to stay at or above 4500 rpm -for example cruising @ 4k rpm the FI blinking there always, and no stumbling - it worked fine.

So I think it's the TPS sensor (main) will check that out. And because the manual says:
"Do not remove or adjust the main throttle sensor. It has been adjusted and set with precision at the
factory."
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"If the reading is out of the range, replace the throttle body assy (see Throttle Body Assy section).
If the reading is within the range, but the problem still exists, replace the ECU (see ECU section)."
kawasaki's solution to either the TPS or the ECU will cost so much money..

But if the TPS, then it looks like the K9 gixxer 1000 have the same (by the pics, & the voltage range in it's manual) TPS sensor(s) like the 10R. Part#: 13580-18G00-000 (if mine shot then first I try to swap with the secondary TPS sensor, then I will look for a used throttle assy but if there's none, or costs too much money, I give the gixxer tps a try)
 

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Discussion Starter #13
Sorry, but I don't think that the gixxer tps sensors useable: on videos it looks like the throttle plates rotate to the opposite direction, so the sensors too.
But will check that the older models ('03 Z1000, 636, etc) throttle bodies & their sensors work the same or not.

My other mistake was when I checked the fuel pumps, I thought that the red wire is the 12 V one on (my very old) PC power supply I used to power the pumps, but really I only gave them 5 V. Anyway, the Walbro GSS342 washed away the OEM pumps I have, no wonder that it's way more audible in the fuel tank.

Maybe if I get home from work I'll do the checks for the sensors from the service manual.
 

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iv got a spare tps if you want i can post it for the cost of postage. Your posting along here and nobody is helping. Down side is im in Croatia until Friday but will ship exped on Saturday for you.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
iv got a spare tps if you want i can post it for the cost of postage. Your posting along here and nobody is helping. Down side is im in Croatia until Friday but will ship exped on Saturday for you.
That's most generous Sir, thank you very much! ;) You're in one of the countries next to us :) Work or holiday?
I will accept your kind offer if I made it sure that the TPS sensor is the faulty part. I haven't checked it yet, as I'm working overtime on most days.
 

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im probably as far from Hungry in Rovinj, Croatia is a strange shape on the map, dictated by history of course, and yes im working. Back. to Antwerp on Friday, but i am thinking about ripping down to these parts on my bike August-September time
 

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Discussion Starter #18
Yep, that's a good price.


Now about my problem:
The symptom is now repeatable: when the engine rpm reaches a certain value (sometimes 4500 or just 4k rpm - it doesn't changes between the two one or another) or try to accelerate above, then depending on the throttle position (for example try to cruise at that rpm or trying to accelerate way above) it seems like the fuel delivery cuts out soft or hard until the rpm drops below. Not caused by the TPS sensors.


I suspected the main throttle position sensor - maybe worn that region - so I took both off (secondary too) to see if I can disassemble, check & clean it inside. (....) Long story short, I put back the sensors approx the same position with the factory paint marks. I think it wasn't precisely adjusted back, because at around 2200 rpm the engine got a bit gargling, but nothing serious issue came from my careless action. The stumbling at around 4k rpm was also there, just like last week. So I decided by the service manual's DFI self diag table, to disconnect both sensors and see how the ECU manages without their signal. (I had FI codes of both sensors & 67 which is O2 sensor heaters as the fuse still removed) Looked like a solution first, it worked flawless, a bit laggy acceleration compared to problem-free state, but very usable 200 km/h no problem. So refueled it and headed back home - then minddle on that 6 km trip the stumbling came back - also the disconnected O2 sensor's FI codes.
Left everything just like that and went for a (180 kilometers) ride with my buddy. The only new thing with the symptom that the bike wont recover after holding the throttle thru 3-4 stumbles just like as the ECU cannot know that the throttle plates open, so it won't deliver fuel again, until the rpm drops. (last weekend's ride showed that with TPS signal the ECU started to deliver fuel again after a few stumbles until the engine load was high, then it started the cycle again above 4500 rpm). So it still could be the ECU or the way it's programmed, not the TPS, but also could be a few other sensors...
It's like a cruel sentence, sitting on a rocket that's normally capable to do around 300 km/h, which only can go with 100 or 115 (60-70 MPH) 'till it's cut's back the fun...
 

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Discussion Starter #19
A dynamometer tech said as tip, that he's sure that O2 can cause this stumbling/hesitation.
Since the manual states:
" The oxygen sensor #1 (plus the #2 too - Laczi) is active and sensor must send signals (output voltage) continuously to the ECU. "
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"If the oxygen sensor #1 is not activated, the ECU stops feedback mode of the oxygen sensor #1 and #2."
I would think that it cannot cause problems (and also that I bought the bike with O2 FI code, and it worked flawlessly until spring got warmer), but I ordered 2 pieces of O2 eliminators, and will see if that's the solution.
 

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Discussion Starter #20
I put in the O2 eliminators and wanted to refuel the bike - but the engine ran so shite, that it made me to get home. It misfired, ran like a thumper instead of an inline-4, etc below 3000 rpm, and had to adjust the idle higher.

Got home, took it apart, set the main tps ~ 0,8 V @ idle ( let the engine ran while I adjusted it: that was the highest value that didn't dropped the idle rpm: around 0,84 V the rpm dropped significantly; too low values like 0,34 V didn't caused noticeable issues but because most kawasaki manuals for other models contain higher idle TPS voltage values I decided to go as high as possible from the 0,65 V I set by the manual), also checked &adjusted the other tps (secondary), but only by the paint mark.
I really don't know why it started to run better - maybe the Long Term Fuel Trim or something like that amplified the problem until the O2 eliminator's false signal made the ECU to correct the stored values - because even when I disconnected the two tps the engine missed a bit from time to time @ idle .
Anyway, finally it idled fine so I put it together & went for a ride again.

The other test ride after the adjustment went very well, low rpm cruise was smooth, and after the refuel, the higher rpm cruise was also fine: no stumbling, no FI light. So if it stays good even on hotter days then the bad O2 sensors caused all this stumbling problems even when they were completely disconnected. It was sooo god to ride again @ any rpm.
 
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