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Discussion Starter #1
I was just reviewing Garth's "how to degree the cams" thread from a few years back. And I've done it a few times but the first time I did it with the piston stop method, the other was the igntion mark and case line method.
I put in the .50 head gasket last year when I was in Florida at my dad's house, and we used the ignition mark and case line. Bike seemed ok but seemed not quite as fast...maybe just me.
Anyway, I have a new piston stop made from a spark plug and when I do what in shown in the thread, adjust the degree wheel to 1/2 of the difference of the numbers. When I get it back around to TDC indicated on the degree wheel it lines up perfectly on the -0- wheel BUT the ignition mark and case line, don't line up. They are about 8 degrees off before lining up. Meaning they haven't reached the case line yet.
Why is this? and what should I use? Is the thinner head gasket the reason for the change?
Any help would be greatly appreciated. I'm stuck for the moment and wondering if I should hang it up for the night.
Many thanks for anyone that can help me out.:mrgreen:
 

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I don't have any help for you but good luck haha I'm still interested in havin you put a thing gasket an checkin my valves if you want to lol! So maybe once you get the problem fig out on yours mine will be cake:lol:! some one help him out!
 

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The thinner head gasket will increase compression a bit but has nothing to do with the cams. All you have done is increased your compression ratio a bit. Cams control the order of the strokes, intake, compression, power, exhaust... cams also control how long the valves are open and how much they open. They control your valve overlap or scavenging to get the most out of a stroke. If your air/fuel/exhaust doesn't match up.... then the cams can't do their job.

If you put a thinner gasket on and increased your compression, I would look at the gas you are putting into your bike. Maybe you don't have enough octane for it to run right.

I could explain more but without knowing more, I'm throwing darts at a board.
 

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to get TDC with 100% , get a long extended tip of the depth dial gauge, rut this down in the sparkplug hole, rotoat the piston before and ater TDC and the dial gauge will give you true TDC...
 

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Hey bud I got your PM.... I have a question for you when your doing the positive stop method with the piston stop tool..... say you turn it all the way one way and it stops at 40* and then turn it all the other way and its 34* you will move the needle to 37* mkae sure once you go back the other way and it reads the same the other way....

Also are you turning the crank on the same side that the degree wheel is on? if so, if the degree wheels moves at all it will throw it off....


now I have heard of timing marks being off sometimes but the positive stop method is supposed to be the best way to check TDC
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Hey bud I got your PM.... I have a question for you when your doing the positive stop method with the piston stop tool..... say you turn it all the way one way and it stops at 40* and then turn it all the other way and its 34* you will move the needle to 37* mkae sure once you go back the other way and it reads the same the other way....

Also are you turning the crank on the same side that the degree wheel is on? if so, if the degree wheels moves at all it will throw it off....


now I have heard of timing marks being off sometimes but the positive stop method is supposed to be the best way to check TDC

Shawn,
I am turning on the same side as the degree wheel but I did almost 20 turns last night trying to see what I screwed up and it never moved any.. But I might take off the other side and be 100% sure today.. New day, new motivation!!
When I did the piston stop method, I got 25 then went the other way, got 21 split the difference and turned the wheel to 23 and then went back the other way to verify. I use your write up as a zx10r bible to be sure I don't screw it up.
I'm still abit clueless why the markings are that far off. Here is a few pictures of what I'm running into.
 

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Speed Freak
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hmmmm yeah ya know it does look like it a bit off..... but not that much!

I would pull the other cover just to make sure its not getting throw off at all ya know....

If its still off that tiny bit I would continue with the cam degreeing bud. piston stop method is supposed to be the most accurate way to find TDC :)
 

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Discussion Starter #8
hmmmm yeah ya know it does look like it a bit off..... but not that much!

I would pull the other cover just to make sure its not getting throw off at all ya know....

If its still off that tiny bit I would continue with the cam degreeing bud. piston stop method is supposed to be the most accurate way to find TDC :)
Kool.. that's what I'm gonna go do. I appreciate your feedback and quick response. Always great dealing with yeah..:eek:ccasion1
 

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true tdc

i use a long bolt from home depot same pitch as spark plug for a piston stop. the 10 valve angle is so shallow, ther cannot be valve inteference with it at any lift, simple and absolutley safe. u cant get a accurate reading with ur pointer setup, too fat, blunt, too long. use a piece of coathanger wire, shortened to just touch the degree wheel, filed or ground to a sharp point, pointing straight down to the wheel, then bent outward where its very close but does not touch when rotating the engine. the point should be positioned in the degree markings, u should be able to read 1/2 degree, exactly. set the wheel at 0 tdc by the factory marks, turn the positive stop until it touches the piston and then rotate foward just a few degrees, stop and screw the stop in until it touches and stops. the piston cant reach full top stroke and u are ready to measure. rotate foward gently until engine hits stop, hold it there with light pressure and take reading. be careful to look STRAIGHT on, at same angle each reading, always reading from low degree to high. a common mistake, i suspect yours, is reading the wheel backwards, 28 can easily be read as 32, always read from the small number up. now, rotate backward until stopped, hold against the stop and read. as u were doing, split the diff., again small #to large, rotate foward and u should read same at stop, thats true tdc. your factory marks should be very close when done correctly. for accuracy, fix your pointer, get it straight, keep light pressure against the stop, and read carefully. hope this helps. btw, i know people who use the fact, marks for tdc degreeing cams, but this aint horseshoes, close dont count.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
i use a long bolt from home depot same pitch as spark plug for a piston stop. the 10 valve angle is so shallow, ther cannot be valve inteference with it at any lift, simple and absolutley safe. u cant get a accurate reading with ur pointer setup, too fat, blunt, too long. use a piece of coathanger wire, shortened to just touch the degree wheel, filed or ground to a sharp point, pointing straight down to the wheel, then bent outward where its very close but does not touch when rotating the engine. the point should be positioned in the degree markings, u should be able to read 1/2 degree, exactly. set the wheel at 0 tdc by the factory marks, turn the positive stop until it touches the piston and then rotate foward just a few degrees, stop and screw the stop in until it touches and stops. the piston cant reach full top stroke and u are ready to measure. rotate foward gently until engine hits stop, hold it there with light pressure and take reading. be careful to look STRAIGHT on, at same angle each reading, always reading from low degree to high. a common mistake, i suspect yours, is reading the wheel backwards, 28 can easily be read as 32, always read from the small number up. now, rotate backward until stopped, hold against the stop and read. as u were doing, split the diff., again small #to large, rotate foward and u should read same at stop, thats true tdc. your factory marks should be very close when done correctly. for accuracy, fix your pointer, get it straight, keep light pressure against the stop, and read carefully. hope this helps. btw, i know people who use the fact, marks for tdc degreeing cams, but this aint horseshoes, close dont count.
Thank you for the help and it was a combination of a few things that I was doing wrong.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
Thanks to Garth and gazx10.
It looks like it was my degree wheel mounting to the 17mm headed bolt, the turning it from the same side as the degree'n wheel, and the pointer being a bit too long and hard to read.
I took off the right side cover to turn over the engine with the 14mm headed bolt, cut down the pointer and narrowed the tip of it so it was more accurate.
Once I did all this things, the factory ignition mark and case markings lined up perfectly as well as my degree'n wheel was spot on.
I settled with 106.5 intake and 104.5 exhaust, some good street and low-midrange power numbers. I don't do top speed runs and very rarely us the upper 2-3000 RPMs. With my setup and they way I ride there was no need for huge top end numbers in my situation.
And mtkeeper23, sorry for my confusion...LOL I know that had to scare you about me working on yours. Got it under control now.
 
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