[Honey Badger]

I've read about this, I'm aware it exists. I seem to be REALLY struggling with it, especially this past weekend. The bike was feeling much more dialed in, I sorted out a couple settings to a place where I preferred them, and my eyes were moving and my references solid.

My eyes and processing brain were telling me all was good, start braking at point x.

The other voice in my head kept freaking out at how much faster point x was coming up, even though I KNEW point x was PLENTY of time, and I kept starting braking WAY to early - I was braking, lightly, forever in a few places.

I was putting down fairly respectable times on my old bike (Daytona 675), but obviously the ZX gets up to a higher speed between points A and B. Now that the set up things are sorted for the time being, I know I can safely start actions where I think I should, but the extra speed keeps that other voice screaming at me.

Besides seat time and keeping my eyes moving and my references established, anyone else who's moved to the bigger bike who's had to overcome that other voice that insists it's too fast?

I'm rather frustrated that it was a constant problem all weekend....I was literally taking a short vacation between when I'd start braking and actually turn in to turn 1....

I have a few methods to nip at it, but I'm getting impatient with my lack of adjustment to the new bike :|

 

[Boxtradamus]

I've read about this, I'm aware it exists. I seem to be REALLY struggling with it, especially this past weekend. The bike was feeling much more dialed in, I sorted out a couple settings to a place where I preferred them, and my eyes were moving and my references solid.

My eyes and processing brain were telling me all was good, start braking at point x.

The other voice in my head kept freaking out at how much faster point x was coming up, even though I KNEW point x was PLENTY of time, and I kept starting braking WAY to early - I was braking, lightly, forever in a few places.

I was putting down fairly respectable times on my old bike (Daytona 675), but obviously the ZX gets up to a higher speed between points A and B. Now that the set up things are sorted for the time being, I know I can safely start actions where I think I should, but the extra speed keeps that other voice screaming at me.

Besides seat time and keeping my eyes moving and my references established, anyone else who's moved to the bigger bike who's had to overcome that other voice that insists it's too fast?

I'm rather frustrated that it was a constant problem all weekend....I was literally taking a short vacation between when I'd start braking and actually turn in to turn 1....

I have a few methods to nip at it, but I'm getting impatient with my lack of adjustment to the new bike :|

Your most likely faster on a road race track than 99% of the men on this site, so my advice would be just keep at it, dont give up lol.

 

[JayBoCC2]

I've read about this, I'm aware it exists. I seem to be REALLY struggling with it, especially this past weekend. The bike was feeling much more dialed in, I sorted out a couple settings to a place where I preferred them, and my eyes were moving and my references solid.

My eyes and processing brain were telling me all was good, start braking at point x.

The other voice in my head kept freaking out at how much faster point x was coming up, even though I KNEW point x was PLENTY of time, and I kept starting braking WAY to early - I was braking, lightly, forever in a few places.

I was putting down fairly respectable times on my old bike (Daytona 675), but obviously the ZX gets up to a higher speed between points A and B. Now that the set up things are sorted for the time being, I know I can safely start actions where I think I should, but the extra speed keeps that other voice screaming at me.

Besides seat time and keeping my eyes moving and my references established, anyone else who's moved to the bigger bike who's had to overcome that other voice that insists it's too fast?

I'm rather frustrated that it was a constant problem all weekend....I was literally taking a short vacation between when I'd start braking and actually turn in to turn 1....

I have a few methods to nip at it, but I'm getting impatient with my lack of adjustment to the new bike :|

The only way i can relate to you HB is that earlier this year, B pace scared the pooey out of me, but now i'm running comfortable 2 mins on my own at thill. Like already stated, you have a boatload more skill than i do so my advice is relatively worthless but I think seat time and focusing on your eyes is the only way to really cull that feeling. This is your own barrier/plateu to break and I have no doubt you will get it done. It may also be worth considering that your reference points need to change to compensate for the new levels of acceleration and braking.

Can always do what i'm trying to do to make up the skill gap, throw money at it / track days until you see results. lol

 

[or10r]

Repetition for me. Going from wot to full on braking at point x and making the turn time, time after time until that voice was gone and I realized I could move x down the track another 7 feet and start the process over. I'm an upper Intermediate to low advanced rider so I'm sure I'm no where near you HB but that works for me.

 

[Honey Badger]

Guess I'll revert to an old method that worked for me in the past - where I want to roll off, just wait for "1." Then, if there's still plenty of time, next time make it "1, one thousand." Then eventually make that "1, one thousand, 2...."

It's worked for me in the past, unfortunately I'm not the type to just go bombing in and take the chance on blowing the corner (too much street riding -where that's a really stupid idea?), so I need to work at it the other way.

Supposed to be back at the track this weekend, so will hopefully have some good opportunities to work on those things.

 

[ShawnG]

You're probably 20 mph faster down the straights than you were on the 675 so i would imagine you just gotta get used to the speed. Before you know it im sure you will be going down the straight thinking there's something wrong with the bike and realize you're just used to the speed now lol.

 

[10Arghh]

You should probably slow down initially.

Even though you know what the bike is capable of, you have to build the mental reassurance by getting up to top speed incrementally.

Have you enough time to assess how the bike is reacting to bumps on the circuit? How does the bike feel transitioning from side to side in any chicane? What is the drive like out of the corner? Where does the rear start to step out?

You need to be able to answer questions like this, by starting the session at a lower speed so your brain can take in the bigger picture.

It's the same reason the MotoGP practice lap times (especially at the start of a season), are relatively (to them not anyone else) slow compared to what they end up at by quali.

This builds confidence and speed almost automatically....Because everything will feel great once you're confident which will stem from having a pretty good idea about what's happening underneath you.

Also, you probably know this already, but the riding style will have to adjust for a 1000cc.

Forget corner speed (relatively) and use the big horsepower....Get the bike stood up on to the fat part of the tyre as soon as possible and pin the throttle.

This will compromise a traditional oval shaped line through a corner to more of a square style one (in..stop...turn...gas).

Simon Crafar says something like, it's not about who is first to open the throttle, it's who is first to full throttle.

If you haven't read and watched MotoVudu, I can't recommend it enough.

Good luck.

 

[obijack]

Something else to keep in mind is the new suite of electronics on the Gen 5 compared to what was on the daytona. They are going to let you get away with a lot. Use that to your advantage.

 

[Honey Badger]

Something else to keep in mind is the new suite of electronics on the Gen 5 compared to what was on the daytona. They are going to let you get away with a lot. Use that to your advantage.

Ya, other than autoblip and now the whellie control (which I spent a full day testing and getting used to) I don't trust the electronics - in fact, turning my TC to the lowest setting and getting better feedback from the tires/bike INCREASED my confidence - before I couldn't tell where things were or how close things were to having issues. Bike seemed to get off the corners a little better, too.

The majority of my lost time right now is on the brakes - I'm braking WAAAAAY to early. I don't slam on them, and still have decent entry speed, but I'm going to them way to early despite my eyes and references telling me I have a ton of time, but that other little voice keeps freaking out and winning the argument :badteeth:

Started playing around with the rear brake a bit as well. On the 675, since it didn't even have a slipper in it, I could use the clutch to drag the rear wheel...don't have to use the clutch anymore, so started playing around with the rear brake a bit - liked what I was finding, but putting it to practical use that helps reduce laptimes is a few more steps away. Even without that, however, I'm braking a mile too early on the corners where there's harder braking from a higher speed. :frown:

 

[Lanister]

You can try the slow-roll-off technique. So instead of letting the throttle snap back to zero, control the roll-off as your fingers go to the brake lever. Even a slightly delayed roll-off will put you deeper into the corner.
It will be scary a couple of times but because you'll see that you make the corner every time it should become a part of your comfort zone.

 

[obijack]

Ya, other than autoblip and now the whellie control (which I spent a full day testing and getting used to) I don't trust the electronics - in fact, turning my TC to the lowest setting and getting better feedback from the tires/bike INCREASED my confidence - before I couldn't tell where things were or how close things were to having issues. Bike seemed to get off the corners a little better, too.

The majority of my lost time right now is on the brakes - I'm braking WAAAAAY to early. I don't slam on them, and still have decent entry speed, but I'm going to them way to early despite my eyes and references telling me I have a ton of time, but that other little voice keeps freaking out and winning the argument :badteeth:

Started playing around with the rear brake a bit as well. On the 675, since it didn't even have a slipper in it, I could use the clutch to drag the rear wheel...don't have to use the clutch anymore, so started playing around with the rear brake a bit - liked what I was finding, but putting it to practical use that helps reduce laptimes is a few more steps away. Even without that, however, I'm braking a mile too early on the corners where there's harder braking from a higher speed. :frown:

Braking later is a mental thing for me. I just have to pick spots on the track as braking markers, and do trial and error. Some corners I will run off until I figure it out. As for the electronics I keep my t/c on 1 when on the track. But the internal IMU is going to allow you to get on the gas earlier coming out of corners, corning management function will help you trail brake into the corners with confidence, and the KIBS helps me brake later (that and the m50's + Vesrah XX). Also are you using engine braking or did you set it to lower? I know a lot of racers are using the kit ecu and unlocking the adjustablilty of all the electronics. But I am upper intermediate slow advanced, so you are likely beyond my advice. :helmet: Hope you can figure it out!!!

 

[Carlos76]

Honey, I had this type of struggle not long ago.
A sort of survival reaction causing to close throttle and go lightly on brakes, but I didn't hear voices! (joke)

Is that feeling or "voice" something like "I don't want to be here and "quit" by closing throttle", sort of uneasy feeling you have on passanger seat of a car when driver goes too fast for your comfort zone?

Main problems/solutions for me were:
a) Vision problem: Focusing eyes too much on brake marker and not able to see/process how the corner sweeps. Solution: As approaching the corner I try to get wide "bird view" through the corner, turn head and no much eye focusing jet, center of the vision much inside of the corner (towards corner exit!).
This way approach speed feels 2x less, able to stay calm. A fraction before rolloff and brake I lock eye focus on inside curb, important, because that is were you need to drift to. You catch rolloff and brake markers with peripherial view.
Tips from former world champ.

b) Action sequence problem: Braking, then quick turning too late. Solution: I as beginner was braking and started to turn almost then braking was done. My turn-in points were "racecar" points - too late for superbike and needed to slow down too much to be able to flick and make to the apex.
Solution: A good instructor identified it and made it clear to me: Start turning somewhere at the same time with braking, some steering handelbar pressure with brakes long before corner starts to turn, with strong brake the bike does not lean much and even with some 20deg lean the bike does not drift much to inside jet.
With regard to our fear problem: This creates safety as you are early executing actions of turning in and braking errors I can catch by running wide and not braking straightup into grass under panic.

c) Simple fear problem. High speed, acceleration, noise, vibration, wind and corner shooting into your face too rapidly can trigger survival reaction for an non-advanced racer.
This was issue for me, but dissapeared over time completly. I think strong acceleration is the main player here. Like Lanister said before try slow roll-off. I would say try rolling off 50% well before fear would trigger, bike maintaining speed and not accelerating anymore, now try to dance, shake your shoulders and joints. If you are able to do it then you are relaxed enough to sense speed, process visual and execute actions.
Coasting a second or two at 50% throttle, but hitting correct brake point is much faster than ripping out last bit of acceleration and overbraking.

 

[tdh]

Braking reference markers are the key. You would have had one set of markers on the smaller bike that are now completely wrong for the new bike. You are doing the right thing initially to roll off way earlier than on the smaller bike. The key is to roll off later and later until you find your new braking markers. There is definitely an adjustment period but you'll get more comfortable and more confident once you find your new markers. The bigger bike is a little trickier because they accelerate faster, have to be shut down a little sooner because of the larger gap from speed at braking point to corner entry speed. Smaller bike can accelerate longer/farther and have a smaller gap between initial braking zone speed and corner entry speed.

 

[Honey Badger]

Yes, eyes are definitely part of the equation, but I felt like it was more of a struggle to get the logic brain and the feeling brain to get on the same page LOL. I was gaining ground on my competitor in the fast sections of the track, but she'd gain back even more in the harder braking zones.

This was a challenge for me to get over on the little bike, and I was still refining it at the end of last year, so while I should expect a bit of a set back with the adjustment to the bigger bike (already have had to move the slow parts of my corners, and change how I see the track - which I have not perfected yet), I'm still frustrated by it - losing the time this last winter to get through this stuff still bugs me and I want to make up for lost time!

 

[Duhastme]

Appears to be a lot of great information and suggestions here, thanks OP for making the thread. Will be trying some of these sequences out next go around.

 

[Lanister]

Main problems/solutions for me were:
a) Vision problem: Focusing eyes too much on brake marker and not able to see/process how the corner sweeps. Solution: As approaching the corner I try to get wide "bird view" through the corner, turn head and no much eye focusing jet, center of the vision much inside of the corner (towards corner exit!).
This way approach speed feels 2x less, able to stay calm. A fraction before rolloff and brake I lock eye focus on inside curb, important, because that is were you need to drift to. You catch rolloff and brake markers with peripherial view.
Tips from former world champ.

I would say the above tip has been the most effective for me.

 

[dricked]

I had trust issues with my brakes up until last weekend. They were initially too sensitive and then I had terrible fade that caused me to run off the track. I haven't been aggressive with them until now and boy are they good on this bike.

You really need to just keep pushing your markers back. Find a corner with paved runoff and just keep going later and later until you've got that back end up in the air and you know you can't throw it in at that speed. Counting a whole second or two seconds is a lot of time to wait, try just waiting until your passed the old point and then go for the brakes. This will move you only 5' or so at a time. One second is a crazy, at 60mph that's 88'!

 

[Siwa]

Heap of good advice in here.

For me when I start getting flustered, I either force myself to look further through the corner than I usually do, slowing down everything my eyes are taking in and restricting tunnel vision.
If I'm still struggling, then I dial it back a bunch and start coming up on the corner at a speed where I don't need to brake. Then I take it up 5kph each time I come back around.

The biggest problem I find is when coming up to the corner at a speed you begin to panic at, you brake far harder and earlier, and wash way more speed than you mean to. The only solution I've found to work for me is the no braking runs.

 

[Honey Badger]

I actually got a great tip from one of the other coaches at our last track weekend - his suggestion was that, rather than trying to brake later from where I am, instead, just go slower. Literally. Start out slower than I could go on the 675, but start braking where I know I should be. Gradually add the speed back in, but don't move the brake marker. That worked perfectly. While I didn't get back up to full speed (still another 10mph I could easily get in that stretch), my braking was starting where it should and the slow addition of speed worked like a charm. The first few times I didn't even get past 4th gear - the idea was to not let my brain think about rolling off and slowing down before I got to the "proper" brake zone. Keep it where it's at until I get there. So started out in the 130's down the front straight, got back up to the 150s by the end of the day.

The other thing I did on some other corners (after warning the other coaches not to get on my tail), was start braking where I "felt" like I needed to, but apply the brakes - HARD. Get used to how the bike handled hard braking (I was doing this in C group when I knew there wouldn't be another rider potentially following me into a corner). I was able to safely and comfortably move back my brake markers without scaring myself.

I've never been the type who can just run it off track on purpose - whether it's the years and many, many miles of street riding or just being a girl, that method doesn't work for me - I'll never push it in there that hard unless I'm already super confident in what I'm doing and just squeezing that last bit out (usually only in a race situation).

These alternatives worked quite well for me. Will be continuing the process at my next trackday. Eyes were especially huge once I started to get a better feel for things, so they will be key in making sure all the pieces fall into place.

 

[dricked]

Are you trying to brake where you were on the 675?