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Discussion Starter #1
So last week I did some Dragy pulls and bested a mediocre 7.14s (validated at +1.34% slope) in the 60-130 category. This week, I bested a 6.29s (validated at +1.68% slope); an improvement of 0.85s even though I had an increase in slope of 0.34% (+1.34% > +1.68%).

What did I do different?

I changed my Rev Limiter Shift Light from 13,750 RPMs down to 13,500.

Why?

Although my Rev Limiter was set for 14,200 in Woolich Race Tools, I was having a lot of shift issues at wide open throttle. Since dialing in the QSms was a pain in the ass and getting me nowhere, I decided to try shifting sooner at 13,000 RPMs. So yeah, I took my eyes off the road, watched the RPMs ramp up, and I shifted when the tach hit 13,000. The shift was near flawless.

Then when I got home, I looked at my DynoGraph and realized that my peak HP was approximately achieved at 13,500 RPMs before it started to drop off. So, instead of leaving my Rev Limiter Shift Light set at 13,750, I reset it down to 13,250 allowing myself 250 RPMs "reaction time" from the time my eyes see the Rev Limiter light flashing, to my brain processing it, to transfer that data in my aging brain down to my foot in order to shift as quickly as possibly while not exceeding peak HP at 13,500 RPMs.

Since I just realized this after my best pull today, I hope to see an improvement in my times even if just a slight improvement.

Check out the DynoGraph line and you will see it falls short just before 14,000. So technically (at this point), I probably don't even need my Rev Limiter set to 14,200 since the peak HP falls short of the 14,000 DynoGraph line anyways. If in the future I swap out to a full exhaust, I will reset the Rev Limiter back to 14,200 and reevaluate where I reach peak HP . But for now, I think lowering it down to 14,000 will also prevent unnecessary stress on the engine due to my less than stellar reaction times.

The second photo I used a ruler rool in order to locate the middle of the box between 12,000 and 14,000 RPMs. The arrow represents the middle point (13,000 RPMs). There are 8 equal lines to the right of the arrow before it hits 14,000. Those 8 lines represent 1000 RPMs. Half of that, is 500 RPMs.

Arrow = 13,000 RPMs
Half the 8 Lines = 500 RPMs
Peak HP Achieved at 13,500 RPMs.

I certainly hope I did the math correctly!! Advice, Comments, Suggestions and Feedback are most welcome.

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Do you mind listing out what kinda mods she’s got? Also what gear are you starting in? I’ve got quite a bit of dragy time on mine, 60-130s, 100-150s, etc. you should be able to get sub 5sec fairly easily with minimal mods. Are you doing the tuning yourself I assume?

Race tools is also definitely hard to dial in. The best strategy for me has been to start with the kill time obviously too long and slowly bring it in. Being consistent on the shifter is very important here
 

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Discussion Starter #3
17, It's a 2017 ZX-10RR.

Woolich Racing Software
Sprint P1 085 Air Filter
De-cat
Intermediate Pipe
Stock Exhaust Muffler
Stock Gearing
Stock Sprockets

I do not do my own tuning. I trusted a buddy here on the forum to do the tune. He may chime in. I went from 172.4 to 196.8 on the same dyno, different days.

Ramping up from 30 mph in 2nd gear, finishing in 3rd gear.

Should I be ramping up in 1st gear?

4,400+ Feet Elevation / 10,500+ DA
 

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Damn that DA is high. 2nd gear is definitely the ticket with stock gearing. You might be able to shave 1 tenth off starting in first, but you have to fight wheelies so it’s much harder to be consistent.

Make sure you’re laying way over the tank, face in the windscreen to keep wheelies down. Being properly tucked makes a big difference at the higher speeds but from a 60 roll it’s all about keeping the front down till you get over 120. You don’t have to start all the way from 30, I usually start around 50-54, you just need enough time to get the throttle pinned before you cross 60 and it starts recording.

Pin it from the beginning and let your ETV map do the work, roll off if she starts to come up, TC around 2 can keep things in check. If it’s not really wheeling due to conditions I’ll drop it to 1, or if 2 is being too snatchy I’ll up it to 3.

Post up a screenshot showing your split times too, that’s where we can interpret the most data.

This is a fairly average representation of when I had stock gearing, graves 3/4, sprint p08-F1, my own tune. Stock wheelbase, stock height, no straps, the axle was about in the middle of the adjustment range. My best with this setup was in the 4.5x’s when I really tried, but 4.7 was easy to get consistently.

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I have my shift light set to ~13,750, and I shift as soon as see the light or just a hair after typically. Remember that shifting 2-3 drops you back ~1500rpm. So if you’re shifting on peak hp you’re not really using it, you’re just barely getting to it and then dropping well below it. You’ll want to shift slightly on the other side of it so you spend as much time in that top end power plateau as possible.

Your g forces look pretty detailed so it looks like gps signal is good (if your g force lines look really smooth it’s typically struggling connection and can cause fucky things with the times even if it’s “verified”). Slope is a decent measurement on the dragy, but it can vary by up to +/- .5% from what I’ve found with multiple runs in the same spot.

where are you putting your phone and the dragy when you do runs? As for why your first run was so much slower, it looks like speed increase dropped off hard after you shifted, possibly from you unconsciously rolling off the throttle and getting back into it, or something like that.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Damn brother. -30 feet? You in Louisiana? Before I forget, my traction control is always set on 2. I am not so sure I want to rip it in 1st gear. Your numbers look solid!! Are you taking off in 1st or 2nd?

My Dragy is set on top of the bike, forward of the tank in that recessed area.

Some of my runs have been within 1/100th of a second of each other, so consistency is solid. I got two invalid times; one was 6.03s (-1.43% slope) and the other 6.04s (-1.53% slope). And I've had other times as such; 12.25s at 129.73 mph and 12.26 mph at 129.99 mph in the 1/4 Mile with shitty 2.36s and 2.42s 60 foots. The Dragy is spot on. Unsure if this makes a difference but, I dialed in my wheel speed with speedometer and it is within a 2 second lag time from GPS. If I am doing 80 mph on the speedometer, the Dragy is also 80 mph. So is GPS. All three match since I calibrated my tires in Race Tools.

As for that first run graph, you are correct. I rolled off to shift because my QS was hit or miss with high RPM shifts. The odd thing is, shifting at 13,000 was fine and then resetting my shift light sooner by 250 RPMs from 13,750 to 13,500 is what achieved that faster time ffom 7.14s down to 6.29s; a 0.85s difference. But if my shifts were smooth and seamless at 14k, I think it could be even faster.

Have you made any adjustments to your QSms times since we last spoke?

Perhaps my upper QSms (13,000 - 14,000) need tweaking because it shifted great when I shifted at/around 13k and not 13,750. But I am willing to be my QSms is the same ms in that area. And if it is, I certainly cannot explain the flaws.

ps....The slope is not helping me either. I've come to realize that I could be losing close to a full second or more on that up slope.

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Wow, ok. I'm a bit confused by this post, but in a good way I guess. Glad you improved your time and figured out a new technique. But are you saying that all of your shifting issues were because you were trying to use the QS while bouncing it off the rev-limiter? Or am I not reading that right? If that's the case, then no wonder it wasn't smooth. It never will be. You don't use the QS while on the rev limiter. The rev limiter is to protect the engine, not tell you when it's time to shift. And because it interrupts the ignition to stop the acceleration of the motor, the QS won't work properly and can damage the transmission. You can't tune that out with the reflash. But the shift light should be set for the speed at which you want to actually make the shift, not near redline. So if the rev-limiter is set for 14,200 and peak power occurs at 13,500, then the shift light settings should be for 13,500 or slightly before that to account for any reaction time. As you've noticed, you should be shifting at the peak of the power not at redline.

As for not running in TC 1, I find that logic a bit faulty. The EMU should prevent the bike from flipping over in a wheelie and give you your best acceleration rate forward. The point where that happens is when the front wheel is a few inches in the air. That's the point of maximum acceleration. TC 2 will interrupt the fun sooner than that and may be the reason you're not going faster overall. I would think at your DA and the reduction in power from that, you would have no problem with TC 1 and shouldn't be scared of that at all. Time to switch it up and give it a shot!
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Wow, ok. I'm a bit confused by this post, but in a good way I guess. Glad you improved your time and figured out a new technique. But are you saying that all of your shifting issues were because you were trying to use the QS while bouncing it off the rev-limiter? Or am I not reading that right? If that's the case, then no wonder it wasn't smooth. It never will be. You don't use the QS while on the rev limiter. The rev limiter is to protect the engine, not tell you when it's time to shift. And because it interrupts the ignition to stop the acceleration of the motor, the QS won't work properly and can damage the transmission. You can't tune that out with the reflash. But the shift light should be set for the speed at which you want to actually make the shift, not near redline. So if the rev-limiter is set for 14,200 and peak power occurs at 13,500, then the shift light settings should be for 13,500 or slightly before that to account for any reaction time. As you've noticed, you should be shifting at the peak of the power not at redline.

As for not running in TC 1, I find that logic a bit faulty. The EMU should prevent the bike from flipping over in a wheelie and give you your best acceleration rate forward. The point where that happens is when the front wheel is a few inches in the air. That's the point of maximum acceleration. TC 2 will interrupt the fun sooner than that and may be the reason you're not going faster overall. I would think at your DA and the reduction in power from that, you would have no problem with TC 1 and shouldn't be scared of that at all. Time to switch it up and give it a shot!
As always, valued input Sky!! Thank you.

And to respond to a few of your observations.....

My Rev Limiter is set to 14,200.

My Rev Limiter Flashing Tach Lights were set to 13,750. *I was having high RPM shifting issues.

I noticed shifting at 13k RPMs was much smoother, so I adjusted my Rev Limiter Flashing Tach Lights from 13,750 down to 13,500. *Shifts were "near" flawless (for me).

So in a sense, it is possible (and more than likely) that I was not shifting fast enough at 13,750 and I my shifts were bouncing off Rev Limiter, as you suspected.

"As for not running in TC 1, I find that logic a bit faulty. The EMU should prevent the bike from flipping over in a wheelie and give you your best acceleration rate forward." Key word, "should." And you are saying the very same thing as my buddy did for TC1 vs my preference for TC2. I guess I am just a bit nervous with the TC down on 1 vs 2 where 2 is my "safety net." When doing one of my runs, I did feel slight lift in TC2 but stayed in it and trusted the safety net. Perhaps I will retrieve my balls out of the attic and try TC1 and see if that alone makes any difference in acceleration and Dragy times. From what you are saying, it should.

And since you touched upon Density Altitude, what do you suspect I am losing from 4,600+ elevation and 10,000+ DA itself? Is there some sort of formula that could guesstimate the time loss? Between the 1.88% up slope, nose-bleed elevation, and DA, it's got to account for more than 1 second I would think).

ps. I will ensure my Rev Limiter Flashing Tach Lights are set to 13,500 as 13,750 is peak HP. And if there are any shifting issues due to my reaction time, I will then try downward adjusting to 13,250.....or 12,000. Hahahahaha

 

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haha not quite Louisiana, I’m in Maryland. Still feels like a swamp in the summer though.

dragy on top of the bike should be ok then. I’ve tried putting it in the tail before and it doesn’t like that at all, that’s why I asked. I usually just put it in my left pants pocket with my phone.

Even TC 1 on these bikes is fairly intrusive. Power wheelies ive never gotten it higher than maybe 10 inches, the only time it’s come up high is accelerating off of the crest of hills. The tc will definitely be dependent on condition and rider. I weigh more than most atm so usually for me if I have it in tc 1 when it’s actually coming up it’s coming up hard, and it’s gotta cut more forward acceleration to keep the front down, where tc 2 usually cuts in a little earlier and just lets me float the front off the ground from ~80 till I shift. Definitely experiment though, it could be cutting to much for you, and tc1 certainly isn’t scary.

I’m running my kill times for gear 2-3 from 7500rpm+ at 70ms. I do find it interesting that you can’t even see where you shifted on your g force graph, mine is the spike in force around 120ish mph.

Do you have the log box? The data viewer tool might be helpful in diagnosis as well. I’ve heard it’s -3% power for every 1000ft DA higher, but I’m not sure exactly how much that’ll reduce your times.

Is it wheelie-ing, and where? If the front is coming up you have excess power and that points to technique or setup to get more acceleration. If it’s not wheelie-ing anywhere that would be a power issue either with the bike or DA.

Off the hit your time is a little slow, but not too far off. I’d be curious to see your ETV maps and if they could be costing you a little there. The majority of time is on the top end, with fairly consistent 1 second split times from 100-120, I’m assuming the 1.3sec split from 120-130 is from the shift. Try making sure you’re more tucked in when you get over 100, and see if that makes a difference. If the bike isn’t wheelie-ing at those speeds then you don’t have any excess power and your next best bet will be to try and reduce drag as much as possible.

here’s an up slope example from the same time: the bike typically wheelies from ~80mph till I shift at 120ish, and then sometimes will come up again in 3rd. You can see around 100mph where tc is coming in especially heavily, and how both speed and g forces fluctuate.
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haha not quite Louisiana, I’m in Maryland. Still feels like a swamp in the summer though.

dragy on top of the bike should be ok then. I’ve tried putting it in the tail before and it doesn’t like that at all, that’s why I asked. I usually just put it in my left pants pocket with my phone.

Even TC 1 on these bikes is fairly intrusive. Power wheelies ive never gotten it higher than maybe 10 inches, the only time it’s come up high is accelerating off of the crest of hills. The tc will definitely be dependent on condition and rider. I weigh more than most atm so usually for me if I have it in tc 1 when it’s actually coming up it’s coming up hard, and it’s gotta cut more forward acceleration to keep the front down, where tc 2 usually cuts in a little earlier and just lets me float the front off the ground from ~80 till I shift. Definitely experiment though, it could be cutting to much for you, and tc1 certainly isn’t scary.

I’m running my kill times for gear 2-3 from 7500rpm+ at 70ms. I do find it interesting that you can’t even see where you shifted on your g force graph, mine is the spike in force around 120ish mph.

Do you have the log box? The data viewer tool might be helpful in diagnosis as well. I’ve heard it’s -3% power for every 1000ft DA higher, but I’m not sure exactly how much that’ll reduce your times.

Is it wheelie-ing, and where? If the front is coming up you have excess power and that points to technique or setup to get more acceleration. If it’s not wheelie-ing anywhere that would be a power issue either with the bike or DA.

Off the hit your time is a little slow, but not too far off. I’d be curious to see your ETV maps and if they could be costing you a little there. The majority of time is on the top end, with fairly consistent 1 second split times from 100-120, I’m assuming the 1.3sec split from 120-130 is from the shift. Try making sure you’re more tucked in when you get over 100, and see if that makes a difference. If the bike isn’t wheelie-ing at those speeds then you don’t have any excess power and your next best bet will be to try and reduce drag as much as possible.

here’s an up slope example from the same time: the bike typically wheelies from ~80mph till I shift at 120ish, and then sometimes will come up again in 3rd. You can see around 100mph where tc is coming in especially heavily, and how both speed and g forces fluctuate.

Maryland? So you out playing in the snow these days? This past week been hovering in the 70s. (AZ)

Refresh my memory on your mods? Stock gearing?

My weight fluctuates between a cheeseburger or two around 190 lbs. 5' 10".

My bike don't really wheelie at all, but sometimes a good pull will feel "light."

How much power are you putting down?

196.8 and I honestly don't have too many issues with wheelies. But I also run TC2 all the time.

I will try setting TC1 next time I ride and see if that makes a difference.

Your 2-3 from 7500+ at 70ms, is that the same for 3-4, 4-5, 5-6?

I have to relook mine.

As for the G-Force graph, I guess that shift was flawless? I shifted right around 13k-13.5.

I never really paid attention to my tuck so that is something I will be conscious of next time. I am probably all over the place.

Waiting for warmer days. Today started out very chilly. Down in the 30s!!
 

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I don't know what the heck you are tryin' to do but I wish you were nearby to share with the build and ride lol. I don't know any friends around here that ride.
 

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I don't know what the heck you are tryin' to do but I wish you were nearby to share with the build and ride lol. I don't know any friends around here that ride.
Where is "here?"

If you have a Fakebook account, you can always search for local Groups. Type in a search "Motorcycle Riders" and check out the search response. I found one local, and another huge group in Florida. They're out there. Or better yet..... START ONE for your area.
 

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Maryland? So you out playing in the snow these days? This past week been hovering in the 70s. (AZ)
haha I wish, that weather just makes me jealous. It usually gets cold and dry about mid December, and stays that way till about late march. Snow here is a welcome change to the bland and depressing weather most of the winter.


Refresh my memory on your mods? Stock gearing?
For the two runs I posted it was graves 3/4 long system, emissions removal, and a tune w/ the woolich log box. Maybe a sprint filter but I cant remember.


My weight fluctuates between a cheeseburger or two around 190 lbs. 5' 10".

My bike don't really wheelie at all, but sometimes a good pull will feel "light."

How much power are you putting down?
I was about 240 suited at the time of those runs, 5' 7".

If she's not coming all the way off the ground it sounds like you don't have any excess power. I'd start at ~50mph, get in a full tuck, 2nd gear, flat level road, and pin it. Shift at 13.5-13.7, and see how that changes your time. Sounds like DA is just hurting your hp and you'll benefit a lot more from tucking and reducing your drag than trying to get over the tank to keep non existent wheelies down, you should see a big change in your upper half splits.

So on my local dyno I measured:
169hp with nothing but a Superbike Unlimited flash

181hp with a graves 3/4 system, and 2 wheel dyno works flash

187hp with the graves 3/4, sprint filter, ceramic bearings, airbox mod, 520 kit (18/39 gearing), tuning myself, and some homemade ghetto rear brake pad spreaders (thanks 97grnrs for the idea off of his insta). However this number is by my best guestimate 4-5hp low, as the bike was at 12.0:1 AFR during the dyno run. I've been working on breaking the 200mph barrier lately, so all my my fueling is adjusted to be correct at speed per gear. Without the air moving on the dyno and the airbox mod it ends up much to rich.

I think your local dyno seems to be reading a little high. I would expect a decat, filter, tune, bike to be around the mid 180s somewhere, at sea level. Your DA would take a little more off of what you're actually putting down.


196.8 and I honestly don't have too many issues with wheelies. But I also run TC2 all the time.

I will try setting TC1 next time I ride and see if that makes a difference.

Your 2-3 from 7500+ at 70ms, is that the same for 3-4, 4-5, 5-6?

I have to relook mine.
I'll get my maps sent over to you. I actually had a little bit of time to brave the 45 degree weather over the holidays and work on them a bit. I think its pretty squared away as a base map to just be tweaked slightly depending on the person. Definitely try TC 1, its got plenty of safety net.


As for the G-Force graph, I guess that shift was flawless? I shifted right around 13k-13.5.

I never really paid attention to my tuck so that is something I will be conscious of next time. I am probably all over the place.

Waiting for warmer days. Today started out very chilly. Down in the 30s!!
Did the shift feel flawless? I've never had a shift now show at least a little on the g force, unless gps connection has been less than stellar (I also have runs where the data has dropped completely and I did 60-190 in -1502.12 seconds with a top speed of 6,227,520mph lmao.) As a favor if you don't mind, to rule connection out, put it in your pocket with your phone, to the outside of your hip so when you tuck you don't lay over it.

Good luck my friend! I think you'll see some pretty drastic improvements by starting off in the tuck, putting tc to 1, and ruling out connection. Unfortunately with your DA you may just have to drop a front tooth to gain a little acceleration back. I think 16/39 would work quite well for you. 16/39 for me was good on the track but hilariously unruly on the street trying to get 60-130 pulls. The front would come up as soon as it passed 60, carry it until the shift at ~115, and pick it right back up till over 130.

Sadly my bike is up for the winter, the engine is coming out, she needs suspension service and new tires, but I'll live vicariously through you! I wish more people had dragy numbers to post and compare to too, it'd be nice to have more data points.
 

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I don't know what the heck you are tryin' to do but I wish you were nearby to share with the build and ride lol. I don't know any friends around here that ride.
Same around here. We have a little bit of a car scene but sport bikes are few and far between. It's mostly harley riders that do 50 miles a year.
 

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Discussion Starter #14

Excellent response brother. Your knowledge always inspires me. Perhaps these cold Maryland days could inspire you to put that Dragy on your snowmobile? Hehehehe.

Suited, 240 and 5'7" and you STILL cut them fast logs? I am doing something seriously wrong. But like you said, perhaps it is the DA that is killing me and technique.

What I do know about my bike regardless of the dyno.....it was increased by 24.4 hp. I just wish there was a bonafide industry standard regardless of what dyno is used, where you are located etc.... Hearing how some dyno's run high and others low don't make sense to me. It should be one standard of measurement.

As for my posture, I believe I am simply leaning over the tank and I'd say a good portion of me is still in the drag zone above the windscreen. I'll try and slide all the way back and get lower. I can try and relocate the Dragy, but if you suspect leaning over is interfering with signal, I would suspect the Dragy being in my pocket would be worse, no? And if not mistaking, I collect data from 32 satellites. Whatever the max number is, is what my Dragy shows; 33 if the NSA is monitoring me again. : )

When you have a chance, please send an updated Email. [email protected] Thanks Brother!!

Yes, the shift felt flawless to me. Like, no hesitation whatsoever. Not even a buck in the bike. And like mentioned, some of my Dragy times were within 100th of a second of each other, so it's got to be "dead on balls accurate." So if the times are accurate, it's lack of power, traction control 2 vs 1, elevation, density altitude, rider error (or all of the above).

As for front tooth, I already have a 16T on standby. I was going to have it installed at my last chain swap interval with new rear sprocket and front 17T, but I got a bit nervous to try the 16T. Basically, I want to get comfortable being uncomfortable with the set up as it is now, and then make an informed decision to swap the front sprocket down to 16T when all Dragy numbers have been consistent. Then a swap to 16T will be the tell-tale sign if there was an improvement.

Time will tell!!

I'll keep an eye out for your Email brother. Thank you!!
 

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Excellent response brother. Your knowledge always inspires me. Perhaps these cold Maryland days could inspire you to put that Dragy on your snowmobile? Hehehehe.
I can't lie, every time I see one of those drag racing snowmobiles I'm tempted to buy one

Suited, 240 and 5'7" and you STILL cut them fast logs? I am doing something seriously wrong. But like you said, perhaps it is the DA that is killing me and technique.

What I do know about my bike regardless of the dyno.....it was increased by 24.4 hp. I just wish there was a bonafide industry standard regardless of what dyno is used, where you are located etc.... Hearing how some dyno's run high and others low don't make sense to me. It should be one standard of measurement.
Unfortunately, I think it's partially due to build variations from dyno to dyno, as well as how it's calibrated. Correction factors are never spot on either, and with you being so high DA wise it means a bigger correction factor, and thus more room for error. I watched a youtube video where a guy went in and purposefully fooled with the environmental numbers to show how they can be cheated and had his 270hp supra throwing down 1000hp lmao. I've heard lots of horror stories about the dynos at bike events doing the same. Trick the dyno into reading low, sell the customer a "better" air filter, and then magically gain 10hp. 20-25hp gain is definitely right on par though, so I don't think you have an issue there! You just might not know exactly what that hp number is, but then again, neither does anyone else.

As for my posture, I believe I am simply leaning over the tank and I'd say a good portion of me is still in the drag zone above the windscreen. I'll try and slide all the way back and get lower. I can try and relocate the Dragy, but if you suspect leaning over is interfering with signal, I would suspect the Dragy being in my pocket would be worse, no? And if not mistaking, I collect data from 32 satellites. Whatever the max number is, is what my Dragy shows; 33 if the NSA is monitoring me again. : )
When you get fully in the tuck you'll definitely feel it, the bike was designed for the rider to be there. I've used the current mpg display to ghetto grade my tuck at a steady speed before lol.

I put the dragy in my front pants pocket, essentially as far towards my side as possible, out towards the hip. That way even if I'm tucked the dragy is on my side not under me. Of course, if your pants don't have pockets you're SOL lol. If I had a 3D printer I'd make a suction cup mount for the dragy and stick it above the dash tucked into windscreen. The manual states the dragy should be mounted on the dash in the car, clearly under the windshield. I have a feeling that's because while the dragy can be impressively accurate, I don't know that it forms the strongest connection, judging from how poorly it worked just under the plastic in the tail, and how there's one spot on my local highway that'll consistently drop the connection if it's slightly cloudy, despite me not having an issue with any other GPS device there. I think a connection strength % would be useful data. Or maybe the NSA really is just stealing our signals :alien:.

Yes, the shift felt flawless to me. Like, no hesitation whatsoever. Not even a buck in the bike. And like mentioned, some of my Dragy times were within 100th of a second of each other, so it's got to be "dead on balls accurate." So if the times are accurate, it's lack of power, traction control 2 vs 1, elevation, density altitude, rider error (or all of the above).

As for front tooth, I already have a 16T on standby. I was going to have it installed at my last chain swap interval with new rear sprocket and front 17T, but I got a bit nervous to try the 16T. Basically, I want to get comfortable being uncomfortable with the set up as it is now, and then make an informed decision to swap the front sprocket down to 16T when all Dragy numbers have been consistent. Then a swap to 16T will be the tell-tale sign if there was an improvement.

Time will tell!!
You've got the tools to measure and lots of things to go through at least, and changing things one at a time to have the data to verify changes is the best option. Problem-solving is always fun to me too. I would say if you get full tuck, tc1, pin it from 50 and the front wheel still never comes up, it is a DA issue and you'll just have to go to 16 T, but if that's the case your 16T is probably equal in power to an 18T for my DA lol. That'll move your wheelbase back a little too making it slightly less wheelie prone even with the more aggressive gearing. Unfortunately, atmospheric density is just a bitch for NA vehicles sometimes.
 

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Discussion Starter #16
I can't lie, every time I see one of those drag racing snowmobiles I'm tempted to buy one


Unfortunately, I think it's partially due to build variations from dyno to dyno, as well as how it's calibrated. Correction factors are never spot on either, and with you being so high DA wise it means a bigger correction factor, and thus more room for error. I watched a youtube video where a guy went in and purposefully fooled with the environmental numbers to show how they can be cheated and had his 270hp supra throwing down 1000hp lmao. I've heard lots of horror stories about the dynos at bike events doing the same. Trick the dyno into reading low, sell the customer a "better" air filter, and then magically gain 10hp. 20-25hp gain is definitely right on par though, so I don't think you have an issue there! You just might not know exactly what that hp number is, but then again, neither does anyone else.


When you get fully in the tuck you'll definitely feel it, the bike was designed for the rider to be there. I've used the current mpg display to ghetto grade my tuck at a steady speed before lol.

I put the dragy in my front pants pocket, essentially as far towards my side as possible, out towards the hip. That way even if I'm tucked the dragy is on my side not under me. Of course, if your pants don't have pockets you're SOL lol. If I had a 3D printer I'd make a suction cup mount for the dragy and stick it above the dash tucked into windscreen. The manual states the dragy should be mounted on the dash in the car, clearly under the windshield. I have a feeling that's because while the dragy can be impressively accurate, I don't know that it forms the strongest connection, judging from how poorly it worked just under the plastic in the tail, and how there's one spot on my local highway that'll consistently drop the connection if it's slightly cloudy, despite me not having an issue with any other GPS device there. I think a connection strength % would be useful data. Or maybe the NSA really is just stealing our signals :alien:.



You've got the tools to measure and lots of things to go through at least, and changing things one at a time to have the data to verify changes is the best option. Problem-solving is always fun to me too. I would say if you get full tuck, tc1, pin it from 50 and the front wheel still never comes up, it is a DA issue and you'll just have to go to 16 T, but if that's the case your 16T is probably equal in power to an 18T for my DA lol. That'll move your wheelbase back a little too making it slightly less wheelie prone even with the more aggressive gearing. Unfortunately, atmospheric density is just a bitch for NA vehicles sometimes.
Have you seen this?



While this may be perfect use inside a car, I would never use a suction cup mount on a motorcycle. I would remove that suction cup and fab it up with some industrial strength velcro. Just something to consider as an option.
 

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Unfortunately, I think it's partially due to build variations from dyno to dyno, as well as how it's calibrated. Correction factors are never spot on either, and with you being so high DA wise it means a bigger correction factor, and thus more room for error. I watched a youtube video where a guy went in and purposefully fooled with the environmental numbers to show how they can be cheated and had his 270hp supra throwing down 1000hp lmao. I've heard lots of horror stories about the dynos at bike events doing the same. Trick the dyno into reading low, sell the customer a "better" air filter, and then magically gain 10hp. 20-25hp gain is definitely right on par though, so I don't think you have an issue there! You just might not know exactly what that hp number is, but then again, neither does anyone else.
...just to shine some light on this, being that I own the dyno in question. :) Just about every dyno in the industry displays higher than actual numbers. The history of that goes back a long way (the mid 80's), but at this point high numbers have become an industry standard and machines are (software) calibrated to display a wheel HP number PLUS a certain % (we will call that the "industry standard"... it's very close to what predicted driveline losses should be), and then a correction factor on top of that. I can actually turn the industry standard off on my dyno.... it doesn't matter to me. But if I do, and now the customer thinks his brand new ZX10R makes "only" 150hp stock, and maybe 170ish after a flash/pipe; he will be in denial and just go to another dyno/forum/expert to get the number they think they should have. It's depressing, but it's so wide spread that everyone has to do it to be "on par" with everyone else. Actual, real wheel HP numbers can be calculated easily on my dyno, but no one would believe them after 35+ years of misinformation. At the end of the day, though, it doesn't actually matter what number it says so much as what it says before and after. It's a comparative tool, not an outright measuring stick. :) And you are spot on with them being able to be manipulated... that extends to things like tire pressures, engine temperatures, strap technique... there are lots of ways to skew results if you are not careful and consistent. It gets even worse when you start playing with forced induction......

Sadly, the only correction factor I can run on mine I believe is STD, not SAE... that accounts for another 4% or so... and we really don't account for humidity (being in the high desert that's not much of an issue). Temperature is the big bastard and accounts for most of the DA/CF on any given day outside of the static elevation. I always explain all these things to customers, but it can get lost in the sauce with the excitment of being in the room and seeing all the numbers. I will say that this particular dyno is extremely repeatable, and by applying correction factors appropriately the same bike will make within 1% of its power in wildly different atmospheric conditions on runs that are months apart. I keep a pretty big library of comparative runs too, so that bike-to-bike comparisons are valid. I don't like to say "X bike makes Y more power", but rather prefer to say "X bike makes y% more power"... it gives a good real world comparison. :)
 

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...just to shine some light on this, being that I own the dyno in question. :) Just about every dyno in the industry displays higher than actual numbers. The history of that goes back a long way (the mid 80's), but at this point high numbers have become an industry standard and machines are (software) calibrated to display a wheel HP number PLUS a certain % (we will call that the "industry standard"... it's very close to what predicted driveline losses should be), and then a correction factor on top of that. I can actually turn the industry standard off on my dyno.... it doesn't matter to me. But if I do, and now the customer thinks his brand new ZX10R makes "only" 150hp stock, and maybe 170ish after a flash/pipe; he will be in denial and just go to another dyno/forum/expert to get the number they think they should have. It's depressing, but it's so wide spread that everyone has to do it to be "on par" with everyone else. Actual, real wheel HP numbers can be calculated easily on my dyno, but no one would believe them after 35+ years of misinformation. At the end of the day, though, it doesn't actually matter what number it says so much as what it says before and after. It's a comparative tool, not an outright measuring stick. :) And you are spot on with them being able to be manipulated... that extends to things like tire pressures, engine temperatures, strap technique... there are lots of ways to skew results if you are not careful and consistent. It gets even worse when you start playing with forced induction......

Sadly, the only correction factor I can run on mine I believe is STD, not SAE... that accounts for another 4% or so... and we really don't account for humidity (being in the high desert that's not much of an issue). Temperature is the big bastard and accounts for most of the DA/CF on any given day outside of the static elevation. I always explain all these things to customers, but it can get lost in the sauce with the excitment of being in the room and seeing all the numbers. I will say that this particular dyno is extremely repeatable, and by applying correction factors appropriately the same bike will make within 1% of its power in wildly different atmospheric conditions on runs that are months apart. I keep a pretty big library of comparative runs too, so that bike-to-bike comparisons are valid. I don't like to say "X bike makes Y more power", but rather prefer to say "X bike makes y% more power"... it gives a good real world comparison. :)
This is the type of info that should be on a sign on every dyno. I know people won't actually read it eve nif it's in front of their face, but it's valuable info to have repeated over and over since the misinformation is widespread. As always, nicely done!

It's a very timely post and I'm going to re-post it in another thread that was recently brought up on this topic. I chimed into that one, but not with the level of detail or accuracy as this.
 

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Discussion Starter #19 (Edited)
A few snapshots from today's progress.

5' 10", 201 lbs (with gear), logging began 25 miles away from where I topped off with a full tank.

Believe it or not, my best valid run was 5.67s on TC2, upslope at 1.44%.

447171


My second best run of the day came in at 5.94s. This run was on TC1 at -0.57% down slope.

447172


In either case, I reset my Rev Limiter Flashing Lights to 13,250 (hoping for a perfect shift at peak HP at 13,750), and either my reaction time is that slow or the QSms times need to be adjusted. Several times it would not shift into 3rd gear.

I downward adjusted my shift lights back to 13,000 and it now works flawlessly again but I believe I am not hitting peak HP. So, I would believe it must be the QSms times.

Basically, any RPMs over 13k are in need of slight adjustments

If my Rev Limiter is set at 14,200, what RPMs should I be looking to adjust the QSms in Woolich Race Tools; 13,000, 13,500, and 14,000? Or just 13,000 and 13,500?

Or a better question to ask is, what is your QSms in these target areas?

I've gone through several maps and perhaps my QSms Values are too high at those RPMs?

2nd to 3rd is 66ms.

3rd to 4th is 64ms.
 

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Discussion Starter #20
17RR,

Although I ran 5.67s, I just realized my 60-70, 60-80, and 60-90 were slightly faster than your 60-70, 60-70, and 60-80 in your 4.74s run by 0.29s. So I have potential!! Hahahaha

You clearly make up that time beyond 90 mph though!!
 
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