[MrKo]

I am still trying to get the rear of the bike sorted. I was wondering if anyone had found some good numbers for the bike. I am on a TTX rear, also having major issues setting sag ... its not making sense.

 

[evallarta1]

It's not quite as simple as "what's your shock length?". There are soooo many other variables that contribute to what your shock length needs to be.

Where are your forks set at in the triples?
What cartridges are you using (where does that put the overall fork length at)?
What springs are you using?
Which triples are you using?
What tire manufacture and size are you using?
What's your wheel base?
What's your swingarm length?
Are you using shims in the clevis?
What spring are you using on the shock?
If you have the 2016, where do you have the swingarm pivot plates set at?

Then from there what problems are you having?
What makes you think shock length will correct your issue?
How do you know the spring is right/wrong for you and your pace?
Is the front your issue and not the rear?

There are no "magic numbers" for setting up geometry. There are so many variables that are specific to each bike and to each rider. To give you an example, we set up Bobby Fong's and Dave Anthony's 10rs differently because of the way they ride the bikes. Yes they are in a "general ballpark" but they are using different springs from each other based on their needs and the track layout.

I would strongly suggest you find a competent tuner to work with to figure out your setup. I've seen riders waste (and I do mean waste) time and money trying figure out settings because of what they read on the internet.

 

[MrKo]

It's not quite as simple as "what's your shock length?". There are soooo many other variables that contribute to what your shock length needs to be.

Where are your forks set at in the triples? Flush
What cartridges are you using (where does that put the overall fork length at)? Andreani valves front , TTX rear
What springs are you using? 10.6 front , 10 rear
Which triples are you using? Stock
What tire manufacture and size are you using? Pirelli SC 200
What's your wheel base? hm
What's your swingarm length? hm
Are you using shims in the clevis? second to furthers back.
What spring are you using on the shock? See above
If you have the 2016, where do you have the swingarm pivot plates set at? Stock, didnt know this could be changed

Then from there what problems are you having? Struggling with rear grip at apex to roll on. Keep spinning up the rear until I can stand the bike up. Also pushing wide in my corners but looks like I have an idea on that one.
What makes you think shock length will correct your issue? Hoping it will address the running wide issue.
How do you know the spring is right/wrong for you and your pace? I dont, working on that. But lack of traction is an issue at any pace.
Is the front your issue and not the rear? Front is solid, it feels great after some work

There are no "magic numbers" for setting up geometry. There are so many variables that are specific to each bike and to each rider. To give you an example, we set up Bobby Fong's and Dave Anthony's 10rs differently because of the way they ride the bikes. Yes they are in a "general ballpark" but they are using different springs from each other based on their needs and the track layout.

I would strongly suggest you find a competent tuner to work with to figure out your setup. I've seen riders waste (and I do mean waste) time and money trying figure out settings because of what they read on the internet.

Well I was just trying to see if there was a general ballpark that people seem to be around. I do know there are many factors. But if you are trying to help, I did answer your questions as I really am having some issues. :grin2:

 

[SkyDork]

This has the makings of an informative thread. I want to see where it goes.

 

[evallarta1]

Do you know how much preload is in the shock? Did you buy an off the shelf shock or did someone massage it for you?
What kind of pace are you running?
Do you know where your rebound and compression are set?

There are generally two kind of grip issues, edge grip and drive grip.
Edge grip - When you first crack open the throttle the tire looses grip
Drive grip - You're already well into the throttle and the bike drives wide.

You mention you have both problems? You also said you have an idea for fixing the drive on exit, what's your fix?

 

[evallarta1]

Also depending on which version of the Ohlins shock you got the KA364X shock comes with either a 90 or a 95. Is there a reason why you have a 10 on it?

 

[MrKo]

Do you know how much preload is in the shock? Did you buy an off the shelf shock or did someone massage it for you? I did get it off a Ohlins dealer BUT I think it came to me untouched :|
What kind of pace are you running? I am a podium AM , so upper mid pack expert club pace.
Do you know where your rebound and compression are set? Both are set to 8 clicks out .

There are generally two kind of grip issues, edge grip and drive grip.
Edge grip - When you first crack open the throttle the tire looses grip
Drive grip - You're already well into the throttle and the bike drives wide. See reply

You mention you have both problems? You also said you have an idea for fixing the drive on exit, what's your fix?

I am struggling with edge grip. As the bike starts to stand up its hooks up fine but thats where I am getting pushed wide. I was told by a few guys I need to raise the rear. It was set to 311mm eye to eye. I was told I need to be around 315-317 mm.

My rear sag number are really odd. I am 200lbs, my static is 5mm and with rider is 15mm . There is no preload on the spring at this point as I backed it all the way off trying to see if I could get the sag close to the 28mm mark. Cant get it past 15mm. I almost feel like maybe Ohlins marked the spring wrong.

 

[cca101]

I have the same exact problem as you. Roll on grip at apex is pathetic. I still manage to run good times by adjust my riding style and standing the bike up to get on the gas, but it's not anywhere close to what I'd like the bike to feel.
This is what I have going on, I weigh 185 w/no gear.
Front forks Andreani 9.8 and 10.3 spring. about 35mm of sag, forks in stock position.
Rear shock: JRi with 560 spring, 33mm of sag, stock length.
Swing arm eccentric flipped to lower position (lowering angle).
3mm of shims to raise the rear.
pirelli sc1
-1 front sprocket, stock rear, stock number of links of chain, so wheelbase is very slightly extended.

I do not experience squatting, nor does my bike seem to run wide when I apply the gas. The main problem is drive grip, especially initial roll on when the bike is fully leaned at the apex.
The Andreani kit has vastly improved the front end feel and I have been able to use that to my advantage especially when trail braking.
Now back to the rear, after talking to a few riders who have extensively tested the bike, I keep hearing that the rear needs to be stiffer, combination of more preload and compression damping, I have heard 25mm of sag.
So next time out I am trying more preload and go from there. This has been haunting me and I hope I can figure it out soon.
Maybe you can try this as well and let us know if it helps.

 

[MrKo]

I have the same exact problem as you. Roll on grip at apex is pathetic. I still manage to run good times by adjust my riding style and standing the bike up to get on the gas, but it's not anywhere close to what I'd like the bike to feel.
This is what I have going on, I weigh 185 w/no gear.
Front forks Andreani 9.8 and 10.3 spring. about 35mm of sag, forks in stock position.
Rear shock: JRi with 560 spring, 33mm of sag, stock length.
Swing arm eccentric flipped to lower position (lowering angle).
3mm of shims to raise the rear.
pirelli sc1
-1 front sprocket, stock rear, stock number of links of chain, so wheelbase is very slightly extended.

I do not experience squatting, nor does my bike seem to run wide when I apply the gas. The main problem is drive grip, especially initial roll on when the bike is fully leaned at the apex.
The Andreani kit has vastly improved the front end feel and I have been able to use that to my advantage especially when trail braking.
Now back to the rear, after talking to a few riders who have extensively tested the bike, I keep hearing that the rear needs to be stiffer, combination of more preload and compression damping, I have heard 25mm of sag.
So next time out I am trying more preload and go from there. This has been haunting me and I hope I can figure it out soon.
Maybe you can try this as well and let us know if it helps.

Yea, not what I got the correct springs in the forks, they are great. The Andreani kit really is good. I was having my doubts.

I think my running wide issue is a geometry issue. The main concern is the edge grip as you described. I was sold 28mm sag but its just ballpark.

 

[cca101]

If you are running wide, perhaps shimming the rear will help, or in your case starting with the correct shock length. I know mine was set at stock shock length (not sure what that is) and I shimmed the rear 3mm.

 

[Niner1000RR]

I would throw the sag numbers out the window and focus on what the bike does while it's in gear! lol

 

[evallarta1]

So here's a VERY broad setup. This is more of a general direction setup and NOT gospel. I still encourage you find a tuner to work with and not rely on the internet as there are WAY too many variables.

In stock form, we have found the swingarm angle out of the box to be a good start, BUT there is too much trail in the front. If you just start jacking up the rear you will apply too much swingarm angle and lose grip. So if you flip the eccentrics you will lose swingarm angle. This allows you to raise the rear of the bike (via shims or extending the shock) and still keep the swingarm angle acceptable. At the same time this will help to eliminate the trail as you raise the rear. Next we start to lower the front to help delete more trail. Keep in mind that there is not a lot of room to drop the front and you start rubbing the rim/fender on hard parts of the bike.

As to shock length, 315 to 319 is a good range to be working with. That length is with the shock stretched and the top out spring compressed (this is NOT the length as the shock sits on table is resting form).

I am a bit reluctant to put this out there as I KNOW some people will do this and expect it to work magically and that is just not the case. Spring rate, preload, and valving can and will also play huge parts in this. I only post this as a very very general direction to go. Good Luck!

 

[evallarta1]

I would throw the sag numbers out the window and focus on what the bike does while it's in gear! lol

What's sag? :wink:

 

[MrKo]

You guys are like the 5th people to say ditch the sag concern lol.

 

[evallarta1]

You guys are like the 5th people to say ditch the sag concern lol.

Sag is useless. I can make the sag whatever I want with rate and preload. I care about what the rider feedback is, not a stupid number. Walk over and talk to ANY pro rider and and ask if you use sag. You'll get laughed out of the paddock.

https://youtu.be/lJvPH3F-sPE?t=4m4s

 

[LDH]

You guys are like the 5th people to say ditch the sag concern lol.

I respectfully disagree and I will not tell you to ditch the sag numbers. Those numbers are very critical when sorting out geometry issues and getting repeatable consistent results. They also help rule out tire wear from incorrect spring rates and insure the shock is riding in the correct area of the stroke etc. For the majority of average riders they can easily dictate whether the bike is working with the rider or against them.

The only point where I start to disregard sag settings is when working with professional riders that are within say 5 or less seconds of a given lap record. When a rider is moving at a pace like that they have their own methods to achieve the feel, grip and confidence they need to maintain that kind of pace and many of their bikes are set-up completely counter-intuitive to what a rider running at 10, 15 or 20 seconds off the pace requires. At that point we focus less on proper sag numbers in favor of specializing the suspension components to aid the rider in maximizing grip and the precision of the steering by using the suspension to dynamically change the geometry. Things like reducing fork oil levels and altering top-out springs, different valve specs etc.

 

[evallarta1]

I respectfully disagree and I will not tell you to ditch the sag numbers. Those numbers are very critical when sorting out geometry issues and getting repeatable consistent results. They also help rule out tire wear from incorrect spring rates and insure the shock is riding in the correct area of the stroke etc. For the majority of average riders they can easily dictate whether the bike is working with the rider or against them.

The only point where I start to disregard sag settings is when working with professional riders that are within say 5 or less seconds of a given lap record. When a rider is moving at a pace like that they have their own methods to achieve the feel, grip and confidence they need to maintain that kind of pace and many of their bikes are set-up completely counter-intuitive to what a rider running at 10, 15 or 20 seconds off the pace requires. At that point we focus less on proper sag numbers in favor of specializing the suspension components to aid the rider in maximizing grip and the precision of the steering by using the suspension to dynamically change the geometry. Things like reducing fork oil levels and altering top-out springs, different valve specs etc.

You're right, I jumped the gun by saying sag is useless. So let me rephrase my previous statement and say sag is not the end all be all like many riders think it is. I've had way too many riders argue that the bike should be correct since the sag numbers are right on and the first thing I want to do is change preload settings based off their feedback.

 

[Vonstallin]

if this question was about an R6.....NObody on a R6 board would respond lol....they keep everything race wise on that bike a secrete.
Thats why I love how we Kaw Boyz share stuff all these years.

 

[evallarta1]

if this question was about an R6.....NObody on a R6 board would respond lol....they keep everything race wise on that bike a secrete.
Thats why I love how we Kaw Boyz share stuff all these years.

What's funny is EVERYBODY knows what numbers to use so it's not really a secret. :badteeth:

 

[Oengus]

same problems
I have bad feedbacks from the rear
I mount a Bitubo Shock , 105spring preloaded at 16mm . I used the stock shock lenght (307,5mm) but the front wheel stayed in air all the time , putting it to 309,5 things are better, the wheel stay down , but still I don't have a nice feeling with the rear. I have a little oring on the shocks to measure the movement of the shock and it works till the end , so I don't know if the spring is too soft (my weight 83kg without gear) . I don't know but I have the feeling that we have to use the spring rate e and lenght of the gen4 ...110/115k and 311mm lenght...what do you think?