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I have a question for all you computer tuners out there. I have an '06/A&R baffles/disabled valves/gutted cat/Ivan's TRE and run Ivan's map.
 

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There are way low #s in the 0% column to my taste, specially in the 3K to 6K range. You don´t know what the bike is doing unless you install a lambda and read it.
My advice would be to turn all that column to zero value to return it to stock injection pulse and see if you get rid of that stumbleness.

Performance wise the 0 column won´t give you anything. I guess they set that values for pollution/fuel consumption improvement.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
There are way low #s in the 0% column to my taste, specially in the 3K to 6K range. You don´t know what the bike is doing unless you install a lambda and read it.
My advice would be to turn all that column to zero value to return it to stock injection pulse and see if you get rid of that stumbleness.

Performance wise the 0 column won´t give you anything. I guess they set that values for pollution/fuel consumption improvement.
Thanks for the tip. I looked at some other maps and they are zeroed out in Column 0 but then again I'm running a TRE so that could be the reason Ivan was negative on fuel. I'm going to give it a try and see how it goes...if it's a positive change I'll post up the map for others as well.
 

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Well are you stumbling on decel or accel? Accel should have no effect at 0 throttle. 0 throttle is complete decel and the reason you lean the 0 colomn out is to get rid of the popping backfire. No looking in the part ot WOT colomns from 2750 to Redline your mixture was richened. Why I don't understand. My map was leaned out in the midrange up to -31 at WOT and richened up up top. Maybe you are getting to much fuel. You should get to a dyno and at least get a baseline. See where your HC (hydrocarbons or basically unburnt fuel) and your CO levels are at. Typically you want aroud 600 HC's and about 3.0-4.0 CO levels. I bet you your HC's are in the neighborhood of 1500 and CO levels in the 6-7 range.
 

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To much unburnt fuel will cause a dramatic power loss and cause you to stumble.
 

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Alright understanding the numbers :

0 = no change in fuel map
-5 = -5% change in fuel map
5 = +5% change in fuel map

I had my 06 10R custom tuned with LeoVince full system. At 0% throttle I was throwing flames out the pipes. This isnt a bad situation it is only unburned fuel being reignited. What my tuner did was change the 0% throttle mapping. The adjustments were changed from 0 to 15 (yes more fuel). So I recommend changing your 0% throttle at 500 and 750 RPM to 15.

This info is only based on my experience so take it for what it is worth. This might help your situation.
 

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Alright understanding the numbers :

0 = no change in fuel map
-5 = -5% change in fuel map
5 = +5% change in fuel map

I had my 06 10R custom tuned with LeoVince full system. At 0% throttle I was throwing flames out the pipes. This isnt a bad situation it is only unburned fuel being reignited. What my tuner did was change the 0% throttle mapping. The adjustments were changed from 0 to 15 (yes more fuel). So I recommend changing your 0% throttle at 500 and 750 RPM to 15.

This info is only based on my experience so take it for what it is worth. This might help your situation.
If you were throwing flames at 0% throttle due to an excess of unburnt fuel why would you want to add more fuel? Makes no sense to me but I am no expert tuner. To me Looking at your map I think the reason you are stumbling is to much fuel. From the factory all the ZX10R 's no matter the year ran way to rich in the bottom end. That is a proven fact. By adding more fuel essentially you are flooding the engine. The combustion does not completely ignite all the fuel and your engine has to work harder to push raw fuel out. I would try a zero map and see how your bike reacts. But like stated before get to a dyno. That is the only way to know for sure.
 

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the dyno is the only way to go for accurate tuning, you cant accurately laptop tune it with out a dyno or wideband data logger.

as for the throwing flames its a lean pop not excess fuel being burnt and it is common in modded bike to add some fuel there.
 

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If you were throwing flames at 0% throttle due to an excess of unburnt fuel why would you want to add more fuel? Makes no sense to me but I am no expert tuner. To me Looking at your map I think the reason you are stumbling is to much fuel. From the factory all the ZX10R 's no matter the year ran way to rich in the bottom end. That is a proven fact. By adding more fuel essentially you are flooding the engine. The combustion does not completely ignite all the fuel and your engine has to work harder to push raw fuel out. I would try a zero map and see how your bike reacts. But like stated before get to a dyno. That is the only way to know for sure.
It was explained to me that at 0% throttle there is excess oxygen that is pushing fuel out of the cylinder heads that is reignited in the exhaust. By adding more fuel to mix with the oxygen it gets burned. It worked for me since I didnt have anymore flames out my pipes. My tuner said this is a common trick for track bikes that typically throw flames.
 

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the dyno is the only way to go for accurate tuning, you cant accurately laptop tune it with out a dyno or wideband data logger.

as for the throwing flames its a lean pop not excess fuel being burnt and it is common in modded bike to add some fuel there.
There is a big difference between lean pop and shooting a flame out the exhaust. Lean pop will not cause you to shoot a flame at 0% throttle on decel. Remember we are talking decel 0% throttle here. The only thing that can cause that is the PAIR system and unburnt excessive fuel.
 

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It was explained to me that at 0% throttle there is excess oxygen that is pushing fuel out of the cylinder heads that is reignited in the exhaust. By adding more fuel to mix with the oxygen it gets burned. It worked for me since I didnt have anymore flames out my pipes. My tuner said this is a common trick for track bikes that typically throw flames.
Like I stated I'm not an expert tuner but everyone of my race bikes and street bikes that I've built wanted less fuel on decel 0% throttle. If it worked for you then cool. But I haven't work on an 06-07 yet on the dyno so I am basing on bikes that I've worked with.
 

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But I think we've gotten of topic a bit. DRAIN FADE I think when you state stumbling you are talking about accelerating correct? Then the 0% throttle fuel amount would have nothing to do with the stumbling. Now if you were surging on decel then maybe you will need to take a look at the 0% throttle. I think the reason you stumble is its to rich down low. But like stated before by Garth and myself take it to a dyno and get it checked. Its the only way to be sure.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
But I think we've gotten of topic a bit. DRAIN FADE I think when you state stumbling you are talking about accelerating correct? Then the 0% throttle fuel amount would have nothing to do with the stumbling. Now if you were surging on decel then maybe you will need to take a look at the 0% throttle. I think the reason you stumble is its to rich down low. But like stated before by Garth and myself take it to a dyno and get it checked. Its the only way to be sure.
Yes you're right...stumble on accel from 0 throttle. The only thing is that I notice it more when the temps drop...which would say it's too lean right ? It was at -10 so I changed it to 0...haven't had much of a chance to ride because of snow around here. I don't get any decel popping though at -10 so richening it up a tad won't hurt. Hmmm...your theory that it's too rich would make sense if it got worse as it got hotter...so that's why I'm leaning towards the lean theory. As to getting a dyno run...if I had an extra 300 bucks to toss at a new map all my issues would be solved but with a small surge issue at low end in cold temps isn't really pulling me towards a custom map...besides I'd rather buy a pipe right now anyway ;)
 

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Well to get a baseline shouldn't cost you more then $75. By getting a baseline you would get an accurate reading of what your bike is doing and where. The key readings on a baseline are your HC and CO numbers. In your case I would care less about the HP output more about where your A\F readings are at. As far as the cooler temp creating more of a problem I couldn't tell you an exact answer. When tuning the richer the fuel mixture the cooler the engine temps and vise versa leaner equals hotter. The hotter the outside temp the richer the AF mixture you want. The cooler the temp the the safer it would be to run a leaner mixture. But that is in theory. Stumbling is typically caused by to much fuel because the motor has to work harder to push raw fuel out the exhaust. Now to lean would cause the bike to completely fall flat on its face. Why I say its rich is the more throttle you give and the higher the RPMs go it clears itself out correct? That to me says to rich down low and good fueling up top. Hope this helps but I still think you should go get a baseline because nobody here can tell you exactly what's up with your bike. We are all guessing.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
Well to get a baseline shouldn't cost you more then $75. By getting a baseline you would get an accurate reading of what your bike is doing and where. The key readings on a baseline are your HC and CO numbers. In your case I would care less about the HP output more about where your AF readings are at. As far as the cooler temp creating more of a problem I couldn't tell you an exact answer. When tuning the richer the fuel mixture the cooler the engine temps and vise versa leaner equals hotter. The hotter the outside temp the richer the AF mixture you want. The cooler the temp the the safer it would be to run a leaner mixture. But that is in theory. Stumbling is typically caused by to much fuel because the motor has to work harder to push raw fuel out the exhaust. Now to lean would cause the bike to completely fall flat on its face. Why I say its rich is the more throttle you give and the higher the RPMs go it clears itself out correct? That to me says to rich down low and good fueling up top. Hope this helps but I still think you should go get a baseline because nobody here can tell you exactly what's up with your bike. We are all guessing.
Interesting..thanks for the tip, I'll try and get a baseline. I'l probably put my map back to what it was unless I notice and improvement.
 

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Try a 0 map and see what happens. Can't hurt and if it solves the problem there you go. I would put the 0% column at -5 from 2500 up to 8500 to help with the decel pop and the rest 0 and see what happens.
 

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This map, I worked hard on it on the dyno. If you want you may have a try on it.
Configuration was: stock headers, Akra Hex slip on, race intake, v.stacks, k&n, so it´s not that far from your´s, and my motor was running hyper strong with it; in fact even stronger on the dyno than other 10Rs with full exhaust. Of course, no stumbling or whatsoever.
I´ve the ignition module table as well, if you´d like it to give a try.
 

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Well are you stumbling on decel or accel? Accel should have no effect at 0 throttle. 0 throttle is complete decel and the reason you lean the 0 colomn out is to get rid of the popping backfire. No looking in the part ot WOT colomns from 2750 to Redline your mixture was richened. Why I don't understand. My map was leaned out in the midrange up to -31 at WOT and richened up up top. Maybe you are getting to much fuel. You should get to a dyno and at least get a baseline. See where your HC (hydrocarbons or basically unburnt fuel) and your CO levels are at. Typically you want aroud 600 HC's and about 3.0-4.0 CO levels. I bet you your HC's are in the neighborhood of 1500 and CO levels in the 6-7 range.
You hit the nail on the head on this one! :+1:
 

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On my 05 ZX-10R with a wideband and PC3, each number is approximately .1 AFR change.

For instance, if the cell is set to 0 and the wideband logs 14:1 and I change that cell to -10, the wideband will then show 13:1.

I don't know if this would be the same for 06-07 or 08-09 bikes, but figured it would useful for you guys to know approximately what changes you are making by going +/- 10 in a cell.
 

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On my 05 ZX-10R with a wideband and PC3, each number is approximately .1 AFR change.

For instance, if the cell is set to 0 and the wideband logs 14:1 and I change that cell to -10, the wideband will then show 13:1.I don't know if this would be the same for 06-07 or 08-09 bikes, but figured it would useful for you guys to know approximately what changes you are making by going +/- 10 in a cell.
The concept is right, but just the opposite. In the example, after setting -10 the WB will show 15:1
:thumbsup:
 
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