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Discussion Starter #1
Hey Guys,

? For you Smart types..:cool:

Was Racing w/ my buddy yesterday and putting a whoopin on his R1 and we swapped bikes. After 2-3 Roll-ons he tells me my bike lost power - sure enough something was DEFINITELY WRONG with the motor - checked Power commander and the usual areas - Long story short my intake cam sprocket had slipped to where it couldn't advance further - SOOOOOO!! Im going to re-degree my cams in - Wanted to know if anyone has tried and likes any degree #'s better than the 107/103 that is commonly used with the Intake race cam and 0.45 head gasket.

I have 1st gen Bike with Usual Race Filter / M4 Exhaust / 08 race intake cam (couldnt find the 04 cam and Yes I know they're different), stock 04 exhaust cam - PC3usb blah, blah.etc. Ive never tried any other degree #s and wondered if anyone else had - and what they thought?
Thanks guys:hello:
 

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that's not good..your cam would retard if it slipped, lucky for you that didn't give you any piston to valve clearance issues, as retarding gives you more clearance. 107/103 are good all around numbers. i set mine higher. around 109/108. this gives you more top end power. carpenter racing and web advised me to set them around 109/109. i did and was very happy. if you want to retain a little more mid range you could use 108/106.
 

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I'm at 106/107 (decked head) and i'm happy, good midrange and top.
109's and 110's are good numbers for top.
 

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Interesting topic. I was wondering if any one knows the stock degree #'s on the 09 zx10 and if you have made any changes?
 

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Interesting topic. I was wondering if any one knows the stock degree #'s on the 09 zx10 and if you have made any changes?
the 08 09 zx10r cams are set a lot higher than other years. they are 111/103. this is why the 08 has a very high rpm power band. the exhaust side is still low. i here 109/109 is still a very good improvement for this bike as well.
 

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cam degree #'s.

How much difference in top end HP are we talking about if you go from 105/105 to 109/109 ? Anybody have an idea? Mike.
 

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How much difference in top end HP are we talking about if you go from 105/105 to 109/109 ? Anybody have an idea? Mike.
It's not just how much more hp you will make but where you will make it. You might only gain a few hp, but where your power will start to drop off after 11,000 rpm the bike will keep gaining all the way to redline with 109/109 settings. So peek hp numbers might not be much higher. You could be 8hp or so higher after 11,000rpm or so.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
the 08 09 zx10r cams are set a lot higher than other years. they are 111/103. this is why the 08 has a very high rpm power band. the exhaust side is still low. i here 109/109 is still a very good improvement for this bike as well.
ZXBrian,
Why are people setting their exhaust #'s high - like you and Tasos are suggesting 109/109 or so. Doesnt an increase in the exhaust cam # broaden your torque curve but lower it? That was my understanding anyways.:dontknow:
 

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ZXBrian,
Why are people setting their exhaust #'s high - like you and Tasos are suggesting 109/109 or so. Doesnt an increase in the exhaust cam # broaden your torque curve but lower it? That was my understanding anyways.:dontknow:
That is a common misconception, I am not sure why, I think it might have something to do with the fact that a lot of cam timing info available online, like the kind that came with my cam degree kit refer to a single cam car. where you can only advance or retard your cam. so it might say retarding your cams is good for high rpm power, well retarding raises your intake numbers, and lowers your exhaust numbers..duel cams are better because you can advance and retard independently. what you are looking for is your Lobe Separation Angle(LSA) This is the average of your 2 lobe centers. so a stock zx10 has the cams set at 104/102. take 104 plus 102 =206 then divide by 2 you get your LOBE SEPARATION ANGLE of 103. if you tighten your LSA numbers(make the number smaller) it moved the power to lower rpm. if you WIDEN your numbers(increase the number) it moved power to high rpm.
the intake cam is the most sensitive to being moved, so if you move from 104/102 to lets say 107/104 which is a common number for zx10's it moves your LSA number to 107+104 divided by 2 = (105.5) thus moving power up in the rpm range slightly. 109/109 would produce a LSA of 109 which moves power further up, passably sacrificing some low to mid range power. hope this helps and makes sense, its late and i took NyQuil. lol
 

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As said higher cam #'s give you more power up. It all depends on what you want the bike to do, allround or top-end performance. There are usually 2 sets of aftermarket cams, allround and top. From my experience the 04 zx10 has small exhaust ports and cannot take the gases out quickly, so turning exhaust to at least 106 from 102 helps alot.
 

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In raising the power to the higher end, does this also raise the peak torque? My E85 makes huge improvements over gas in the peak torque area. I don't want to make my torque unusable, but maybe by raising it some I could get more of the potential higher up where the bike tends to stay revving while drag racing.
 

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In raising the power to the higher end, does this also raise the peak torque? My E85 makes huge improvements over gas in the peak torque area. I don't want to make my torque unusable, but maybe by raising it some I could get more of the potential higher up where the bike tends to stay revving while drag racing.
higher cam numbers decrease peak torque and vise versa.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
That is a common misconception, I am not sure why, I think it might have something to do with the fact that a lot of cam timing info available online, like the kind that came with my cam degree kit refer to a single cam car. where you can only advance or retard your cam. so it might say retarding your cams is good for high rpm power, well retarding raises your intake numbers, and lowers your exhaust numbers..duel cams are better because you can advance and retard independently. what you are looking for is your Lobe Separation Angle(LSA) This is the average of your 2 lobe centers. so a stock zx10 has the cams set at 104/102. take 104 plus 102 =206 then divide by 2 you get your LOBE SEPARATION ANGLE of 103. if you tighten your LSA numbers(make the number smaller) it moved the power to lower rpm. if you WIDEN your numbers(increase the number) it moved power to high rpm.
the intake cam is the most sensitive to being moved, so if you move from 104/102 to lets say 107/104 which is a common number for zx10's it moves your LSA number to 107+104 divided by 2 = (105.5) thus moving power up in the rpm range slightly. 109/109 would produce a LSA of 109 which moves power further up, passably sacrificing some low to mid range power. hope this helps and makes sense, its late and i took NyQuil. lol
Brian - that was one of the most informative pieces of information I have read on the workings of dual overhead cams and the relation between the degree #'s and their effects on the motor performance. I'm somewhat a tech-head and appreciate a working knowledge of devices - -thanks again - NOW!, I can determine what I want for #'s and I NOW! know what to expect from those #'s.
Thanks Again for the Info
BTW - do you own a 1st gen or one of the other generations?
:eek:ccasion1
 

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Discussion Starter #14
As said higher cam #'s give you more power up. It all depends on what you want the bike to do, allround or top-end performance. There are usually 2 sets of aftermarket cams, allround and top. From my experience the 04 zx10 has small exhaust ports and cannot take the gases out quickly, so turning exhaust to at least 106 from 102 helps alot.
Tasos,
Thanks for the info. about moving the exhaust from 102 to 106 - why would that change in degree #'s (from 102 to 106) help the gas move out the exhaust if the ports are small - I dont understand the relationship between the small ports and the increase in exhaust #'s. With all this info I think I might try something like 109/104. Thanks to all you guys for helping me get this right - Im excited.:smile:
 

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Brian - that was one of the most informative pieces of information I have read on the workings of dual overhead cams and the relation between the degree #'s and their effects on the motor performance. I'm somewhat a tech-head and appreciate a working knowledge of devices - -thanks again - NOW!, I can determine what I want for #'s and I NOW! know what to expect from those #'s.
Thanks Again for the Info
BTW - do you own a 1st gen or one of the other generations?
:eek:ccasion1
i had a 2004 for a few years, now i have a 2006.
 

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cam degree

ok guys, i can understand the high lc on the 08 race intake because of its short duration. this is a roadrace cam designed to strengthen the midrange of the 3rd gen. the high lc allows it to make good top end also. moving the ex. up also will narrow the power (street) curve. factors considered in degreeing cams, compression,duration, lift, rider weight, gearing, and intended purpose are important. degreeing cams wont produce big power changes, but it moves the power curve. top end power is great, if you can catch the bike that jumped u 3 bikes in a reasonable distance. how do u like being left in a roll on? im talking about the ex. cam. if you make 160 hp at 13k, and your friends same bike makes 160 at 12k, he is faster. a big guy with high lc's, stk. comp. and gearing is really gonna have a hard time getting, and keeping his bike in the meat. it's all about the power curve for most riding. 5-6 degrees is big and requires support and knowledge to work properly. one of the most respected builders in the country told me to degree as tight as ptv allowed, and i did'nt. im not arguing with what some of u have made work, im happy for u. just saying there are no generic #'s, and the farther u get from the norm, the more u better know. btw, i cant see how a restrictive ex. port can benefit from a higher lobe center, as it needs more, not less time to exhaust.
 

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good point, my bike is pretty much top speed only, maxton and mile marker one standing mile. high numbers like 109/109 are good for this kind of racing, i have run 110/110 while revving 700rpm over stock redline to utilize such high numbers. for the street 107/104 are very good, that is why they are such popular numbers! I set my 2004 to 107/105 for the street. there wasn't anything without nitrous that it wouldn't run down.
 

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I didn't mean to direct link the small exhuast ports with the degrees, sorry if i did.
If you compare them with other brands they are small. I haven't seen a 08 head but i suspect they are bigger. maybe someone will chime in...Of course cam profile and duration play a role.

In my mind the more degrees on the intake (ATDC) the sooner they open=more fuel.
The more degrees on the exhaust (BTDC) the later the gases are released=the peak power is moved upwards in the rev range.

As long as there is enough Piston To Valve clearance you can degree your cams. All the tuners i talked to said to move up the exhaust, mine said to go directly to 106 and even 108, not 104.

I am NOT by any means a certified mechanic, so if i'm wrong please somebody correct me. Nice constructive conversation!!!
 

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camming

zabian, good of u to clearly state your bikes intended purpose, and i agree with your cam timing. tsasos, i i recognize u know what u are doing as well, and meant no offense. were all just sharing, and i appreciate your good info. you are right about the ten ex. port being small, compared to many, including our main competitor the 1000 gixxer, i read ex. port volume about 30% smaller in the ten. my understanding is the 3rd gen. is a vortex velocity port, even smaller. just concerned that someone will lose power where they need it and gain it back where they seldom get to use it. as mentioned, its a personal decision and needs to be based on several factors and usage. im close to cranking up and tuning, may have to move my ex. up also, counting on the added duration of the small web ex., and ex. porting, to take care of top end breathing at a lower number. i'll let u know how it turns out.
 

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yea the 2004 2005 zx10r had the largest exhaust port for a zx10r. also the largest exhaust valve. 04-05 exhaust valves are 31mm. 06-07 are 30mm and i could be wrong on this one but i thought the 08 exhaust valves are 29mm.
another good thing about moving intake and exhaust lobe centers up is that it increases piston to valve clearance for both the intake and exhaust.
 
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