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i noticed in most of the builds, there is no intercooler...there isnt much space anyway. but ever anyone put a thought to that?
 

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Discussion Starter #82 (Edited)
How much is the radiator moved to fit everything?
Top is in the stock location, bottom out maaaaybe a 1/2 inch to an inch.... it's actually pretty close to a stock set-up, it should fit the stock fairing with minimum-to-no trimming. :)
i noticed in most of the builds, there is no intercooler...there isnt much space anyway. but ever anyone put a thought to that?
Lots of thought. If I could fit one without it looking like ass or compromising some other function, I'd do it in a heartbeat. Chemical intercooling (the water/meth) is a good crutch, but I'd like to have both. For low boost stuff it's not as big a deal; the temperature rise at lower pressure ratios isn't as bad and you nearly get as much temperature rise from overcoming the pressure drop across the intercooler as you do taking it out of the charge air. Buuut, over that 5-6psi that most stock bikes can deal with? Yea, I'd like to have as many charge air coolers as I could get.

This airbox could be modded for a water/air intercooler at some point I think, but I'm completely out of room for the stuff that goes with it. Maybe if the bike had a long arm on it I could find a place to put it, but I figured a good compromise would be the AI injection. I think I remember Dean's bike having an air/water set-up, but I don't remember the details exactly. There are a few bikes that pull it off, but it's usually the bigger bikes with more room. Though, for an intercooler to be effective, it has to be exposed to moving air.... there's not a lot of space on a bike exposed to moving air that would be sizable enough for an intercooler. Even if there was, the drag at high speeds would be monstrous. You could skirt that by doing a water/air set-up and just packing it with ice, but that won't do in my case as this will be an every day street-driven machine.
 

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Discussion Starter #83
Submitted for your amusement.....

First off, sorry about the crappy aspect ratio, it was a phone recording, and I had to upload it from the phone as well.

This is just a test to see if everything was correct wiring-wise to get it to fire up... pretty damn good honestly! I forgot to lower my fuel pressure back down & haven't done any idle tuning at all yet, so I had to keep it running with the throttle.... but that will all be easy to dial in here in the next few days.

.....and I got all puppy-dog excited at the end there and decided to headbutt my car on the lift above me instead of walk under it.... figured I'd leave that in there for the laugh.

 

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Thats sweeet!
 

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Discussion Starter #88 (Edited)
...started working on the fuel mapping yesterday. I had a mountain of IT issues getting something to log properly, and I've ended up using my phone (bluetooth) to take logs, and then come back to the shop and make adjustments on the laptop. I've changed the fuel strategy to a pure Speed Density system scaled from 40kpa to about 240kpa (up to about 20psi). With the limited map resolution (16x16) and large injectors it's really been a challenge, but I'm starting to kick it's ass now. I've been running around with the wastegte actuator unhooked (so it wouldn't make any boost (in theory...) trying to get the NA portion of the map happy, but at about 13K rpm it still made about 3psi! It was lean as shit, but you can tell that it is going to be a fucking animal for sure. Once the basic map is in there it will go much easier, and then the small driveability stuff will get ironed out. But damn, it's really hard to find a place to do 10,000+ rpm tuning on a bike with a dump pipe without The Man stopping by to see what all the noise is about. *sigh* I just need to bite the bullet and buy a dyno methinks.

With any luck I'll have a chance to get some run footage soon. :)
 

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Damn that does sound pretty crazy. You should bring that thing out CA way when its done. I want to see it. Lol. What are you using to datalog and adjust fuel map? Some kind of stand alone Id imagine?
 

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Discussion Starter #91
Damn that does sound pretty crazy. You should bring that thing out CA way when its done. I want to see it. Lol. What are you using to datalog and adjust fuel map? Some kind of stand alone Id imagine?
I just might do that. :)

It's the MicroSquirt V3 unit made to be plug-n-play with the stock wiring harness. MS has some really neat software, but sadly does not do onboard datalogging... you have to log with the tuning software. Good news on that is they have android apps so you can log with your phone or a tablet instead of having to plug a laptop in. It wouldn't be a big deal in a car, but the bike makes it tricky. Being able to communicate with the ECU via bluetooth is damn handy: wire-free logging and map adjusting is pretty sweet. It sure beats the hell out of strapping/velcroing boxes to the tank! :)
 

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Discussion Starter #92 (Edited)
Ooohhhhh Snap

Got back from my trip and got a little time to work on the bike.

It Fuckin' Hauls Ass!!

..heheh, finaly got the base map dialed in enough to hook the wastegate up, and it's making about 7.7ish PSI now. Boost threshold is a little higher than I expected, around 7K in the lower gears.... but it is running pig-rich in places atm. But goddamn, this thing is going to be a lot faster than the SC set-up. Brisk roll-on's in 3rd (~100mph) can just rip the wheel off the ground, even with the bike lowered like it is. It's actually floating the wheel in the top of 4th, I had to roll out of it a bit in the video. Well, I guess I didn't have to, but I'll say I'm scared when I'm scared. This is going to take some getting used to. :)

FWIW, the video was the first 3 gears in the midrange just pulling the tire off the ground, and then a run through the rest of 3rd. Near the end is a pull from down low in 4th (around 4K) to about 11.9K. I rolled out of it once and shut it down a little early... just had my heart beating a little bit. :) AFR's were stable 'till about 9K, then way too rich (10:1).... easy to fix, but just got rained out before I could work on it any more. :(


PS: New Gopro mount I made to sit to the front axle.... whaddya think?
 

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Discussion Starter #94 (Edited)
Baby steps

Making a little more progress, but it's a 3 steps forward, 2 steps back kind of deal.

I'm going to switch my AI injection to be triggered by the ECU, as I have it on a Hobbs switch in the plenum right now. That works really well for WOT stuff, but if I run high rpm (more than 8K) at sustained part throttle (like, say, trying to control front wheel height...) the airbox reaches enough pressure to trigger the Hobbs switch in the plenum, but in reality the motor isn't actually seeing any boost... this causes the bike to break up and stumble a bit as it gets a crap ton of water/alcohol it doesn't need. Easy fix, just time consuming.

I'm getting a nagging little misfire on light loads too, but I'm pretty sure that's an injector that got manhandled/damaged at the shop. The pintle on one mysteriously sprouted a small dent in it one day... methinks someone dropped it. It's been bugging me a little bit as I get just the tiniest little misfire at idle/light loads, but it's not affecting much of anything else. Good thing ID injectors are well enough matched to buy in the singles (sigh).

Last on the agenda is switching the FPR to run on both vacuum and boost. Right now it just runs off a boost signal, raising fuel pressure 1:1 with boost. However, lately I've been literally riding around these huge monsoon storms here, and I can actually notice the change in fuel pressure with the change in barometer and altitude. Seeing as how the ECU is now completely speed density, I could run the FPR on a vacuum/boost signal and be able to tune it completely (not something you can do on a stock system with a piggyback). Because I do a lot of changing in elevation in any given ride (+/- 3000'), I think it will be a step in the right direction to near-perfect, tuning free driveability. All I have to do is scrap & redo about half of my fuel map (sigh again).

....and at some point I need to wire up a boost control solenoid and turn this thing up a bit. :) I'm going to have to work some magic to find out a way to make LESS boost in the first few gears so I can get it down the strip. First and second gear in boost are just an absolute no-go, lowering and long gearing be damned. I think I have an idea on how to do that..... I just need a little Co2 tank and regulator. Should be fun!
 

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Discussion Starter #95 (Edited)
Learned a few neat things last night.

1) Water/meth injection reduces IAT by more than 55F at almost 8psi on my set-up (216F down to 160). It also proveds .5-1.0 AFR worth of fuel correction when properly jetted.

2) Any modern fuel management will pull fuel out based on rising IAT... using standard gas law that's nearly 22% fuel desity/pulsewidth reduction at 216F air temp.

3) Bike can generate well near .7 g of acceleration for all of 3rd and 4th gear, even with 18/40 gearing.

4) A low water/meth tank, even at a 15 degree angle to the sump, will easily uncover the pick-up under anything over .3 g of acceleration.

5) An idiot can easily forgot to top off a water/meth tank when he gets really excited to go out and ride/tune his bike.

6) A stock zx10r piston pretty much finds its limit of longevity at over 210F IAT at around 156kPA intake pressure with AFR's at about 13:1.

7) The faster you go, the more expensive stupid gets.
 

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Im gathering you learned some neat stuff and then popped the motor?
 

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Discussion Starter #98
The good news is I have a nicely built motor on the bench already waiting to go in... I'm just a little upset at myself for the monumentally stupid mistake. I wanted to see what broke first on the motor from power, not from forgetting to fill the tank.

I guess the good news is it didn't really hurt much in the motor. The other 3 were starting to melt on the intake side, but no damage there. No detonation signs anywhere, so I know I have my timing pretty much on point. It scuffed the cylinder wall a little bit, but I'm pretty sure a re-plate and hone will bring it right back into service. Head is still in good shape, no bent valves or anything.

*sigh* Every once in a while I just need a good reminder not to get complacent with things. I'll put this one back together as a spare and carry on with the bigger boost motor now. :)
 

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Discussion Starter #99 (Edited)
Small update... maybe some video tomorrow.

New motor has been in for a bit, but the weather here has been evil.... hardly been able to ride tune it. I changed up the timing strategy a bit, as it just felt off at low revs/throttle. Going to a TPS x RPM table set to the stock values, and then using a secondary table to pull a little timing under boost only, really woke up the bike down off boost. Even with the 19/39 gearing & 10:1 compression I can ride it around town without drama. I'm having a little bit of a battery/charging system issue with it though.... the stator is getting tired and the LiPO battery doesn't like that at all. Still waiting on a good stator to come in.......

Boost controller got plumbed/wired in too... and oh man, it's getting stupid. I can do TPS vs RPM boost control, but I really really really need a gear based set-up. 1st is useless above a couple PSI, 2nd after about 5.... 3rd will stay on the ground up to about 11 psi if it's not too cool outside. Even progressing it from 11psi to 14psi in 3rd results in 130mph rolling power wheelies at about 11K rpm. Keep in mind this thing is half-faired, geared to the moon, and lowered 1.5 inches.... it's bonkers.

As much as I didn't want to at first, I'm thinking about adding some arm to it now. Other than giving me some much needed wheelie control, it'll give me a good place to stuff some of the accessories I have in the tail now.... maybe even think about a water/air intercooler. Charge temps are almost in the 180's @14psi when the whole set-up is heat soaked... probably about 20 degrees cooler when it's not.... and that does bug me a little bit. Until the temps come down a bit I'm running it a little richer than I like... in the low 11's above 10psi... I'd like to have 12 flat when it's all said and done. Still, not bad for 91 octane pump gas

....attached is a little clip of the log from said 3rd gear unicycle action. Even trying to ramp the boost (kPa) through the rpm range doesn't tame it completely. It's hard to describe how freakishly fast it is up top. 196kpa is pretty much 14psi, and 100kpa is sea level atmosphere, for reference.
 

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Id love to see this in action. Jeez that thing must be a missle.
 
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