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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
So I bought a new DieHard battery about 3 weeks ago with 175 cranking amps. It's been absolutely fine this entire time, riding nearly every day. I even rode all day yesterday with several stops and no slow starts or bike dying at all.

Today, I changed the oil on the bike and I backed it out of the garage and started her and let the bike just idle for 25 minutes or so just circulating the new oil and burning the little bit of oil off the headers I spilled (from removing oil filter). Bike got up to 231 degrees by the way which surprised me, but I digress. Once I saw the high temp I shut her down and let it cool off for a bit. Came back out and went to start the bike and noticed a real slow crank. It started. I turned the bike off and on again trying to replicate the slow crank for about two more cranks and then the bike just wouldn't start and I would get the dead battery 'clicking'.

So I was thinking that when it was idling there that the stator wasn't making enough RPM's to charge the motor, so I then bump-started the bike, rode around town, got the RPM's up and came home and turned off the bike. I went to turn it back on and immediately it just 'clicked', the bike wouldn't even turn over. My buddy think's that the battery I bought just doesn't have enough cranking amps for my bike, but Im not sure if that is the case since it's been fine for the last several weeks. I'm thinking stator or voltage regulator, or maybe I just idled the bike too long and the stator wasn't charging the battery and it killed the battery? I'm hoping it's the latter.

Here is the battery BTW, pulled it out of the bike:

 

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Engines should be self-sufficient when running. The bike should run in idle without draining the battery. I could run my old 125cc bike without a battery, but I never tried it with a 1000cc bike. So I don't think its the battery.

But a quick check would be: borrow a battery loader. What you described could be only explained if the battery is completely busted. Riding the bike, and then not being able to start immediately after is not normal, even for a battery that is on its last legs. If the battery can hold its charge, you know it's not the culprit.

E: My G4 manual says the ABS Model needs a bigger battery due to the higher drain of the ABS System. The Non-ABS model runs with the standard battery. Unless you bought from a crappy supplier, the battery should have the amps for your G3.
 

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Sounds like you got a crap DieHard battery and overheated it it the process. The original for that bike was rated for 210 CCA. That's not that big of a deal and the 175 CCA should be sufficient. If you're going lead acid again, get a Yuasa just like the original and not some cheap "powersport" battery you find at WallyWorld. That's your problem.

Why you let it idle for so long and let it get up that hot is the bigger concern. Idling any engine for expended periods of time will damage it. The fan should come on at 212 deg F and if it can't keep up with cooling to let it get hotter than that, that's when problems start. The overheat warning trips at 240 deg F and you came really close. There is no reason to idle any motor longer than a couple of minutes. Getting the engine that hot for the sake of letting it run cooked the battery or you fried the regulator that sits right behind the engine. Or both.

Jumpstart the engine and get a voltage reading at the battery terminals to see if the alternator and rectifier are doing what they are supposed to be doing.
 
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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Sounds like you got a crap DieHard battery and overheated it it the process. The original for that bike was rated for 210 CCA. That's not that big of a deal and the 175 CCA should be sufficient. If you're going lead acid again, get a Yuasa just like the original and not some cheap "powersport" battery you find at WallyWorld. That's your problem.

Why you let it idle for so long and let it get up that hot is the bigger concern. Idling any engine for expended periods of time will damage it. The fan should come on at 212 deg F and if it can't keep up with cooling to let it get hotter than that, that's when problems start. The overheat warning trips at 240 deg F and you came really close. There is no reason to idle any motor longer than a couple of minutes. Getting the engine that hot for the sake of letting it run cooked the battery or you fried the regulator that sits right behind the engine. Or both.

Jumpstart the engine and get a voltage reading at the battery terminals to see if the alternator and rectifier are doing what they are supposed to be doing.
As always thanks for the reply SkyDork. So I had the battery tested (out of the bike) and it was making 12.3v, and it was trickled charge overnight back up to 12.7v. I went home and hooked the battery up and the bike started right up first crank. I disconnected the battery because if rectifer or stator is messed up it could screw up the battery (which honestly I am going to replace/upgrade anyways after reading your post).

Anyways I pulled the stator cover and it looks like the stator is fried:


The real question now is if the rectifier is done as well. I'd like to replace both but my budget has run real thin for this bike, according to the wife.
 

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As always thanks for the reply SkyDork. So I had the battery tested (out of the bike) and it was making 12.3v, and it was trickled charge overnight back up to 12.7v. I went home and hooked the battery up and the bike started right up first crank. I disconnected the battery because if rectifer or stator is messed up it could screw up the battery (which honestly I am going to replace/upgrade anyways after reading your post).

Anyways I pulled the stator cover and it looks like the stator is fried:


The real question now is if the rectifier is done as well. I'd like to replace both but my budget has run real thin for this bike, according to the wife.
Well, that's a good start that the battery is ok. The stator doesn't "look" bad and that's not the way to test it. If the alternator or rectifier is bad, you should test them. I would not be concerned about the battery for a short period of time to test it quick.

Hook the battery back up, start the engine, and see what voltage you're getting on the terminals of it. If it's not 13 volts or more, then one of them is bad. There are other tests to figure out of 1 or both is bad, but that's the next step. First things first.


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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Well, that's a good start that the battery is ok. The stator doesn't "look" bad and that's not the way to test it. If the alternator or rectifier is bad, you should test them. I would not be concerned about the battery for a short period of time to test it quick.

Hook the battery back up, start the engine, and see what voltage you're getting on the terminals of it. If it's not 13 volts or more, then one of them is bad. There are other tests to figure out of 1 or both is bad, but that's the next step. First things first.


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thanks, I will hook it all up and test tomorrow.
 

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  • I disagree that the stator "looks" okay. The lower wire has clearly cooked the protective shielding off. And if it has then it is likely a shorted/grounded coil and isn't producing volts or current from that leg of the stator.
  • It sounds like you have a multi-meter. If you do, test the stator windings at the stator plug according to the manual. This can be done with the stator back on the bike. But I wouldn't bolt it back on just yet.
  • In your video, if you look at every third coil starting at the 12 o'clock position, you will notice that either the shielding is turning dark or that the coil wire circuit is either darkening, turning black or is burned. Make sure you check your main harness for any grounding or chaffing spots against the frame and the charging wires.
  • If the windings were shorted due to excessive heat then the windings may short or open when the engine is hot. This will allow volts to indicate normal when the bike is cool and then stop producing enough volts and amps when hot.
  • Also, when your bike over heated (and it did at 231 degrees F) did the fan ever turn on? It should have. Check for blown fan fuse and test fan ops.
  • A sure sign of a failing regulator/rectifier (reg/rec) are blown headlights or fuses of high current devices like cooling fans.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
So here are two videos with a trickle charger/voltage reader on the bike. First video shows battery voltage off the bike, the the battery installed w/ a cold start, the second video is after the bike is warmed up. FWIW when I put the battery tender on motorcycle mode it just says DFS (Desulfurization) and doesn't show amp/voltage.


 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Also I should add that the day the bike was having trouble, I took off the seat to check the battery, and the battery strap had come loose - so the battery was loose under the seat for who knows how long. The terminal connections were tight though.
 

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Yikes. Those videos are very cringe-worthy. You don't use a charger to measure a voltage and you don't rev the motor up to monitor it through a charger. The charger is trying to output voltage along with the alternator. You're not getting a valid reading doing it that way.

The alternator puts out a variable AC voltage over 3-phases 120 degrees apart from each other. The voltage goes up and down with engine speed. The regulator/rectifier converts the AC voltage to a constant DC voltage and caps it at about 13.5 volts DC. That won't change but a few tenths of a volt just off idle. The test it to measure about 13 volts at the terminals while the engine is idling and that tells you all you need to know. Revving it to 4,000 rpm is useless. If you're seeing more than the 12 volt DC battery output while idling, then it's being recharged from the alternator. That's it. You measure the output directly with a multi-meter, not with a charger that is in series with the battery and the alternator output.

If the battery was loose and vibrating, that can cause issue internal to the lead plates battery. That's why it should be secured.

  • I disagree that the stator "looks" okay. The lower wire has clearly cooked the protective shielding off. And if it has then it is likely a shorted/grounded coil and isn't producing volts or current from that leg of the stator.
  • It sounds like you have a multi-meter. If you do, test the stator windings at the stator plug according to the manual. This can be done with the stator back on the bike. But I wouldn't bolt it back on just yet.
  • In your video, if you look at every third coil starting at the 12 o'clock position, you will notice that either the shielding is turning dark or that the coil wire circuit is either darkening, turning black or is burned. Make sure you check your main harness for any grounding or chaffing spots against the frame and the charging wires.
The windings are coated in resin. The resin will discolor from heat over time. Visually looking at the discolored resin doesn't tell you anything about it electrically. That one that is blacker than the others is only a secondary indication that there may be a problem with it. It's not a absolute. The stator is static while the magnetic rotor spins around it. So the stator is subjected to hotspots for heat that don't change since it doesn't move. I agree that it should be checked further, but it's "fine" since you can't look at it a see an electrical issue with your eyes. It's only an indirect indication to test it correctly. (y)

You can use a multi-meter to to a resistance check on the windings for each phase, but it's easier to do a variable voltage test on the output of each phase. You do that at the input to the rectifier. You can check each phase to see if they are all outputting properly rather than doing a resistance check on each of the windings. It essentially does the same thing, but one is a bit easier to do.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Yikes. Those videos are very cringe-worthy. You don't use a charger to measure a voltage and you don't rev the motor up to monitor it through a charger. The charger is trying to output voltage along with the alternator. You're not getting a valid reading doing it that way.

The alternator puts out a variable AC voltage over 3-phases 120 degrees apart from each other. The voltage goes up and down with engine speed. The regulator/rectifier converts the AC voltage to a constant DC voltage and caps it at about 13.5 volts DC. That won't change but a few tenths of a volt just off idle. The test it to measure about 13 volts at the terminals while the engine is idling and that tells you all you need to know. Revving it to 4,000 rpm is useless. If you're seeing more than the 12 volt DC battery output while idling, then it's being recharged from the alternator. That's it. You measure the output directly with a multi-meter, not with a charger that is in series with the battery and the alternator output.

If the battery was loose and vibrating, that can cause issue internal to the lead plates battery. That's why it should be secured.
Well I feel like an idiot. But at least I am learning new things along the way. I am going to get an actual voltage test kit tomorrow and test the battery with no charger on while it's idling. Im going back to the field saturday for 17 days (being infantry at ft campbell sucks in the winter, by the way) so I'd like to at least have a decent idea of a diagnosis before I leave but I did get a trickle charger so when Im gone at least the battery will still be good when I get back. Im prepared to buy a stator/rectifier if need be just trying to narrow it down to those two things.
 

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Well I feel like an idiot. But at least I am learning new things along the way. I am going to get an actual voltage test kit tomorrow and test the battery with no charger on while it's idling. Im going back to the field saturday for 17 days (being infantry at ft campbell sucks in the winter, by the way) so I'd like to at least have a decent idea of a diagnosis before I leave but I did get a trickle charger so when Im gone at least the battery will still be good when I get back. Im prepared to buy a stator/rectifier if need be just trying to narrow it down to those two things.
No need to feel like an idiot. It's part of the process of learning. Just let us know how you make out when you can.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·

Here is a video test of the voltage before start, cold start and warm idle. FWIW. Bike still cranks up on first try, haven't been able to take her out and ride though, but I will when I get back. Thinking about running a small digital voltage meter into the front of the bike and mounting it by the gauges but I digress
 

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Here is a video test of the voltage before start, cold start and warm idle. FWIW. Bike still cranks up on first try, haven't been able to take her out and ride though, but I will when I get back. Thinking about running a small digital voltage meter into the front of the bike and mounting it by the gauges but I digress
Based on that, it was a valid test and it's working normally.

Running a voltage indicator on the bike like that is overkill. Those are useful on race bikes with a total-loss system. Those bikes have the alternator removed to lose weight and make them faster. They run the bike completely off the battery alone and need to monitor the power before the bike shuts off before the race is over. Seeing that info on a road bike doesn't matter. If you see the voltage drop while riding, there's nothing you can do about it so why worry about it. There are other indications if the charging system isn't working while riding. The high power use items fail a couple minutes apart before the motor shuts off (headlights, then instrument cluster, then engine).


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Hi, I am having similar issues with my gen 3, only thing is I have a yuasa yt12b-bs in mine, had the problem with the bike when I bought it about year and a half ago. Swapped the battery straight away for a yuasa, ok for a couple off weeks and then thought I got a bad battery that was badly stored or something so I got a brand new yuasa again same model and I was driving the bike frequently so I wasnt having any issues but now even fully charged I get like 2 starts and then the solenoid clicks and when I come out on a cold morning it might not even start if left overnight. The battery is charging at 13.5 volts all the cables are tight and there doesnt seem to be any corrosion. I have seen when cranking the voltage dropped into the 9v range, do the starters give trouble on the gen 3, I'm thinking maybe it is drawing too much amps because its worn out. I thought I may have a drain because I was losing lights but all I'm getting is 10millie amps on a drain test.
Also one other question about the clutch switch, why does it have 3 terminals on the switch but only 2 connections on the wiring harness side. I have tested the switch and I get continuity on the outer pins and when I press the tab in I lose continuity on the outer pins and get it from the centre pin to an outer pin which seems to me to be working but I still cant start my bike in gear.
Other than the starting issue my bike runs lovely everything works as it should no blown headlights or any other weird stuff like that. My headlights do flicker a bit but I'm pretty sure my zx6r did that too and it never gave any issues.
 

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Hi, I am having similar issues with my gen 3, only thing is I have a yuasa yt12b-bs in mine, had the problem with the bike when I bought it about year and a half ago. Swapped the battery straight away for a yuasa, ok for a couple off weeks and then thought I got a bad battery that was badly stored or something so I got a brand new yuasa again same model and I was driving the bike frequently so I wasnt having any issues but now even fully charged I get like 2 starts and then the solenoid clicks and when I come out on a cold morning it might not even start if left overnight. The battery is charging at 13.5 volts all the cables are tight and there doesnt seem to be any corrosion. I have seen when cranking the voltage dropped into the 9v range, do the starters give trouble on the gen 3, I'm thinking maybe it is drawing too much amps because its worn out. I thought I may have a drain because I was losing lights but all I'm getting is 10millie amps on a drain test.
Also one other question about the clutch switch, why does it have 3 terminals on the switch but only 2 connections on the wiring harness side. I have tested the switch and I get continuity on the outer pins and when I press the tab in I lose continuity on the outer pins and get it from the centre pin to an outer pin which seems to me to be working but I still cant start my bike in gear.
Other than the starting issue my bike runs lovely everything works as it should no blown headlights or any other weird stuff like that. My headlights do flicker a bit but I'm pretty sure my zx6r did that too and it never gave any issues.

You should be checking the resting voltage on the battery to measure it's charge level. It should be at or slightly higher than 12 vDC if it's charged fully. I'm not sure what you mean by this statement "now even fully charged I get like 2 starts and then the solenoid clicks". Why would you start it repeatedly twice without riding it? Depending on the condition of the battery, that doesn't tell you much. A cold morning with thick oil in the engine takes more effort to crank it. That's just the way it is. There's no history of starter issues with the Gen 3, but it can happen.

The clutch safety switch is just a standard on/off switch. The fact that it has 3 terminals is standard. It can be wired as normally open or normally closed. You only need 2 of those connected depending on which way it's wired. The center pin is common. You will see continuity from the center pin to one of the outside pins depending on the state of the switch being toggled.

The starter lockout circuit contains more than just the clutch safety switch. The sidestand safety switch and gear position indicator are part of that circuit. If you can't start the bike in gear and have verified the clutch switch is fine, then that signal is not getting to the ECU or one of the other switches is interrupting the circuit.
 

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Yes I did that after charging I let it sit for roughly 30 minutes. Before checking the voltage before monitoring and i started with 12.60-12.7 volts, i know that's not normally the way you would go about it, you start it once, let it warm up to operating temps and go for a ride, but sometimes things happen you get a call or something or forget something and you knock the bike off and then come back out and say it doesnt start. Obviously i know you shouldn't repeatedly crank the engine over, but you should be able to do it several times if everything is working ok and not actually have issues because I've never seen any bikes do that. Like if went for a long ride and the battery got fully charged and parked the bike up and went out 2 weeks later it should fire right up regardless theres no drain am I right?

Ok so I think my clutch switch is fine then, it could be one off the other switches then I would suspect the gear position because it switches between gears sometimes when I'm driving even though I havnt changed gears. I will have a look tonight to try get the lockout issue resolved and out off the way.
Can I just bypass the switches just to find out which one is faulty so I can order one then yeah?
 

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Like if went for a long ride and the battery got fully charged and parked the bike up and went out 2 weeks later it should fire right up regardless theres no drain am I right?
Yes, if it's charging up after a ride like it should, the battery should hold the charge for 2 weeks unless there is a parasitic draw on the system or the battery is not in good condition.

Ok so I think my clutch switch is fine then, it could be one off the other switches then I would suspect the gear position because it switches between gears sometimes when I'm driving even though I havnt changed gears. I will have a look tonight to try get the lockout issue resolved and out off the way.
Can I just bypass the switches just to find out which one is faulty so I can order one then yeah?
It's most likely the sidestand switch that is the issue. The sidestand safety switch and clutch safety switch override the gear position switch to let it start in gear. The gear position switch is only triggered in Neutral. If it's not in neutral, then the other 2 override that. The sidestand safety switch gets hit with more water and debris and gets more use out of it. It's typically the one that fails first. Yes, you can bypass that with a jumper wire. It's also easy to test. With the bike on the rear stand and the engine running, put it in 1st gear, release the clutch to get the rear wheel spinning, and then put the sidestand down. The engine should stop.
 
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