[Dustin Wehmeyer]

I'm a new member here, so hi!

Anyhow, I'm having some serious issues and I was hoping to leverage the combined smarts of the lot of ya. Thanks for taking a look through my wall of text below ---- anywho, on to my sob story:


I have a 2013 10R and after adjusting the valves, I can't get it to start. It will crank fine.

I was able to get the bike to start and run twice (back to back) during my troubleshooting. It started, I turned it off. Started it back up. The only oddity with this was I had to hold the throttle open a bit to get it to start. Once started it idled just fine on its own. It sounded perfect. I ran it up to fan temp, then after fan brought temp back down, I turned it off. I was not able to restart after this.

When I try to start, it will pop & backfire out both the intake and the exhaust. It acts like it's not timed correctly (I know, perhaps it is - but read on..).

Needless to say, I'm pretty dang frustrated, and my next step is to go all the way back to the valves and redo everything again. However I was hoping someone might have a solid idea about what I may have missed.

What I did:
• Valve adjustment
• Replaced starter motor
• Cleaned & reinstalled the air bypass screws in the throttle body (I wasn't able to fully sync the idle vacuum previously)
• Cleaned the outside of the throttle bodies and the bores with some brakeclean.
• Installed block-off plates (removed now)
• New spark plugs (I have since put the old set back in)
• Drained & refilled cooling system

What I have checked\tried:
• I have checked every electrical connector I could find. Unhooked, inspected and reconnected.
• I've tried cranking it over without the throttle bodies, and it cranks fine, and pumps air just fine. With the throttle bodies installed, I have issues where it pops, seems to bog at times when cranking. Basically it seems as if it can't pull air through the throttle bodies.
• Compression is good across all cylinders.
• There are no odd noises or obvious broken-ness other than not starting.
• Verified, re-verified checked cam timings. Even removed & re-installed them and re-checked again that it was correct.
• Put old set of known working spark plugs in.
• Verified crank position sensor
• Verified vehicle down sensor
• Fuel is spraying into the cylinders (pump runs & builds pressure)
• Verified coils are working (visible spark on removed & grounded plugs)
• Verified the correct coil wires go to the correct plugs.
• I made sure the throttle body had no blocked air passages and that all the vacuum caps & tubes were in place.
• Battery is charged (I have two batteries and I have been charging & swapping them as I troubleshoot)

 

[chiffeee]

Any code?

 

[Dustin Wehmeyer]

No codes.

 

[chiffeee]

Can you get the ECU to go in code mode, it is done from dash?
I am thinking maybe the crank sensor not reading correctly or your ECU took a dump. looks like you checked all the timing chain for correct position.

 

[Dustin Wehmeyer]

Can you get the ECU to go in code mode, it is done from dash?
I am thinking maybe the crank sensor not reading correctly or your ECU took a dump. looks like you checked all the timing chain for correct position.

No codes. I have hooked an oscilloscope up to the crank sensor and it's fine. If crank sensor was bad, no spark is generated (per service manual). I have spark.

 

[chiffeee]

No codes. I have hooked an oscilloscope up to the crank sensor and it's fine. If crank sensor was bad, no spark is generated (per service manual). I have spark.

how about cam sensor ? is that hooked up?

 

[Dustin Wehmeyer]

Gen4's don't have a cam sensor.

 

[chiffeee]

Gen4's don't have a cam sensor.

sorry forgot about that check map sensor, correct vacuum

 

[chiffeee]

Map sensor act like the cam sensor on that bike , it should have vacuum to sense number 1 and sink with crank sensor, so if something wrong with that could act up, it is odd that you don't have a code but the electronic part could be fine and you not getting the right vacuum to it .
Book calls it intake air pressure sensor , you have 2 of them service code 12 for number 1 and 16 for number 2

 

[Dustin Wehmeyer]

Map sensor act like the cam sensor on that bike , it should have vacuum to sense number 1 and sink with crank sensor, so if something wrong with that could act up, it is odd that you don't have a code but the electronic part could be fine and you not getting the right vacuum to it .
Book calls it intake air pressure sensor , you have 2 of them service code 12 for number 1 and 16 for number 2

Map sensor act like the cam sensor on that bike , it should have vacuum to sense number 1 and sink with crank sensor, so if something wrong with that could act up, it is odd that you don't have a code but the electronic part could be fine and you not getting the right vacuum to it .
Book calls it intake air pressure sensor , you have 2 of them service code 12 for number 1 and 16 for number 2

From what I understand the pressure sensors don't perform any function like the cam sensor. I believe the engine is a wasted spark setup, which just sparks on both the compression and exhaust stroke.

I have no codes for either of the sensors, and I have checked the input & output voltage of both sensors. Both measure fine.

You even unhook the #2 during synchronization of the TB.

 

[chiffeee]

the one you talking about is the number 2 , the first one is to measured number one cylinder position sync with crank sensor , usually if off you will get a code but sense you remove the T body maybe something got out of place or got block from its vacuum , a long shot but check it and make sure it is ok , like you said when is back firing like that it is out of time. so is either timing chain or crank sensor or #1 air pressure sensor.

Another question is ,would you get a code if you disconnect one of the sensors? to just see if the ECU is working?

 

[Dustin Wehmeyer]

Yeah, if I unhook any of the sensors I get the proper code on the display for that sensor.

 

[Dustin Wehmeyer]

I like the suggestion on the map sensors. I will have to take a closer look when I get home.

 

[lenshead]

A friend had a mysteriously rough running Ninja 300, turns out he needed to replace his throttle bodies because the throttle position sensor is not available as a separate part.

Did you get any brake cleaner on your TPS? That stuff dissolves some plastics...

 

[scout]

how many miles on the bike prior to all your work effort.

 

[Dustin Wehmeyer]

how many miles on the bike prior to all your work effort.

42,000 miles.

 

[Dustin Wehmeyer]

A friend had a mysteriously rough running Ninja 300, turns out he needed to replace his throttle bodies because the throttle position sensor is not available as a separate part.

Did you get any brake cleaner on your TPS? That stuff dissolves some plastics...

Yeah the whole TPS thing is pain in the ass. Can't buy the, and new throttle bodies for a gen4 is $1500. Nothing is broken, and the ECU says the sensors are fine.

 

[Dustin Wehmeyer]

I went back all the way to the valves, checked everything again. Including the valves clearances. Checked sensors. I went to try and fire it up and my ECU freaked out. I'm now getting FI codes for every DFI sensor.

I think my ECU is toast, but I'm worried about just replacing it and having the new one fail. I suppose I will pull the wire harness and go over it with a fine tooth comb and see if there is a bad wire in there.

 

[Dustin Wehmeyer]

An update, just in case anyone reads this thread.

This time when I put it back together and tried to start it, I moved the ECU and everything started freaking out. Wiggling the black connector, things would go from bad to worse. Fan would come on, even though the bike was dead cold. Every sensor related to the fuel injection system was showing error codes. I was able to re-position the ECU and get the bike to fire up. It would run, but was running rough and super rich.

Something is physically broken inside the ECU. Grrrrr.... How'd I get so lucky to end up with a busted ECU and a self-destructed starter at the same time. Luck, it can be interesting to say the least.

Well at least I believe I found the problem, and I can get parts off eBay at a reasonable price.

The harness was the first thing I checked. I went through it with a fine tooth comb, checked every single connector. Probing from both sides, while wiggling wires and had no open or intermittent wires. Putting pressure on any of the wires would cause the ECU to to see every sensor as bad. Barely touching the black connector, with just enough pressure that did not move any wires the ECU would see the same problem. I even popped open the connector and didn't find any loose, out of place, stretched or corroded pins. I'm fairly confident that it isn't the harness and is the ECU. I believe must be a cracked solder joint on the pin connector inside the ECU. It just took 42000 miles and me messing with it to actually fail enough to cause issues.

Anyhow, the parts I ordered are on the way, and hopefully that solves my issue. Fingers crossed.

 

[Ninja Johnny]

Read through the thread once so sorry if I missed it, but I didn't read anything about you removing the cam chain tensioner (which you're supposed to do), and resetting it once you re-assembled. Is it possible that the tensioner is fully extended and may have moved the cams out of position with the crank?