Kawasaki ZX-10R Forum banner

Does Suziki use Traction Control in AMA?

  • Heck no! The bike/rider combo is just that good!

    Votes: 13 15.3%
  • No, that sputtering sound is just good tuning!

    Votes: 8 9.4%
  • Yes they do and AMA does not know!

    Votes: 4 4.7%
  • Yes they do and AMA is looking the other way!

    Votes: 47 55.3%
  • Yes!! its just our guys don't know how to make it work!

    Votes: 13 15.3%

  • Total voters
    85
  • Poll closed .
1 - 20 of 93 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,075 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
OK, I have been to Barber for two years and have heard Mladin's bike cut out like you pulled two plug wires when he opened up the throttle at any lean angle. Others have heard the same sound from his bike at other tracks and have noted it as well.
Sooo, does this explain why the GSXR puts together such great laps when it appears this year that the bike does not have the breakaway power on the straights to pull the Honda and Kawasaki?
Juss another poll to consider and express your thoughts..legal, unfair or nonsense.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,075 Posts
Discussion Starter #2
Just so you know, Mat Mladin is the nicest guy at the track! I am a fan of both Mladin and Spies who is also nice. Not Suzuki bashing..it is a great bike. I have not had the love shown by any of the Hayden brothers at the two events I have been to...(Nicky was almost rude and Roger was aloof at the last Barber race). Hey, they are busy and the fact that I paid for pit access does not mean they have to be nice to me..BUT I do believe something is up with the Suzuki superbikes and 3 of us heard the same thing lap after lap and the other bikes did not spit and sputter when nailed in the corners. TC can be turned off manually when you do burnouts and it can sense when the bike is upright for great power wheelies (electronically). Moto GP bikes have used this for years.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,075 Posts
Discussion Starter #3
Another opinion from ZX10RZone:

posted May 01, 2006 09:24 PM AMA Superbikes - No Contest for Cheaters
I was at Fontana at the weekend standing right on the exit of one of the infield turns. It was blatently obvious that the only reason the Suzukis were up front was because of their traction control. You could hear the ignition cutting out as they accelerated away in a really unfair fashion. All the rest just seemed to be struggling with grip and a mile behind. Doug Chandler i'm sure is faster than that.
My point here is that there is no way any privateer would have a chance at getting anywhere close to a factory bike with the pathetic AMA controlling the rule book. Last I heard there wasn't a traction control system offered as standard factory equiment on any streetbike yet, but how does Suzuki get away with it?? Maybe the AMA scrutineers need to sit on a corner of any race track and hear these things go by. Or are their eyes and ears turned the other way? This, like the Formula Extreme rubbish is ruining road racing in this country.
With the AMA's recent history of messing things up (Ricky Carmicheal - lets give his points back. Hold on, that's a Suzuki as well) and most of their staff getting fired or making a run for it, the time seems pretty ripe for a break away series with real rules that give everyone a chance.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
11,157 Posts
They may or may not have it. I haven't been to a race yet so I can't really voice my opinion on the sounds. I will be at VIR when they make it up here. I just think that suzuki has there stuff together and with their riders they are hard to beat. just my .02 cents
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
335 Posts
After seeing the preseason test Mladin did at phillip island i reckon they must have something.

He lapped faster than Corser who definatly has traction control and there is no way it should given the higher state of tune the WSBKs have.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
39 Posts
Oh ya for sure, in turns 2 and 3 at Barber this year Spies and Maladin's bikes were pulling like freight trains while sounding like they were running on 2 cylinders? Hummmmmm..... interesting how bikes can run that fast while "missing"
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,795 Posts
I heard that noise from those two bikes at Barbers too. Never thought about traction control though it does make sense. "don't know"
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
514 Posts
Oh yes I heard the popping at barber this year. If they do have it and its not against AMA rules I say more power to them.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
814 Posts
simple explaination. yes.. they have it.. if its what you call traction control. they've admitted it and explained how it works (to industry insiders).

the system works on a tip/map sensor and is gear dependent. when the bike goes into corners the ignition map cuts spark to 1 cylinder, notice the newly found suzuki ability to spit flames outta the exhaust? watch the Daytona race especially.. its popping going into the corners.. because its spitting out raw fuel. when the bike is at full lean the ignition cuts spark and the bike runs on 3 cylinders.. coming out of the corners it remains on 3 cylinders until a programmed point inwhich it puts all the cylinders back into operation. its obviously to minimize wheelspin by reducing power mid-corner.


HOWEVER.. the AMA isnt turning a blind eye to this.. they just simply have nothing they can do at this point to regulate it. they arent using a standard rear wheel sensor/traction control system.. its ignition mapping. is it traction control? well yes thats its purpose.. but from a technical aspect no.. its just tuning. the AMA is unsure how to regulate that type of tuning, all the while maintaining the rule that allows fuel/ignition mapping. more or less if they limit the Suzuki's from doing what they're doing.. the Powercommander will become an illegal item in racing. (even though the factory bikes are using WAY more advanced tuning methods than powercommanders, it illustrates my point.)

now is it cheating? guess that depends on how you look at it.. rule book says no, and thats why there havent been any protests.. but looking at the margin of victory Suzuki is winning with, they've certainly got something the others dont.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,075 Posts
Discussion Starter #10
Great info Brandon! Could it be an accelerometer array that tells the bike's ecu that it has lateral forces (in a corner) ? Then no matter what the ham fisted rider does there will only be 3 cylinders to fire a wheelspin (not likely).
I wonder does it alternate which cylinder is shut off to minimize a fouled plug scenario? Heck, I just wonder.....nonetheless it works whether it is that or rectal sensor that detects pucker and shuts the cylinder off..LOL
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
47 Posts
I love this topic, because it makes for interesting theories.

I think it has to be more than traction control, because Aaron Yates has struggled this year, while Spies and Mladin have been the class of the field.

If anyone on this forum really knew what the Yosh Suzuki team was doing, there are four other factory teams that would pay you a six figure salary to tell them.

Plain and simple - Mladin and Spies get to WFO throttle and keep it there longer than the other guys. Atleast we have two guys this year, unlike the last two years where Mladin was all by himself.

I enjoyed the Fontana race for 4th - 7th. Those riders (Duhamel, Hodgson, Hayden and Bostrom) and bikes were running identical times and the racers were dicing - great stuff!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
11,157 Posts
Brandon where did you find that information? I am not calling you out I just think its very interesting and if there is an article someplace on it I would like to read it. Thanks for the info though.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
34,537 Posts
No theories bman33 they do and have had a form of it for a couple of years.:1848: just yet another travesty in the AMA.

BD
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,428 Posts
It is more of a timing retard than the cylinder cut. They have a much easier time manipulating timing than cutting cylinders. It works the same way though. Lot of the corner entry popping is because of the dual shift pressure transducer. Just as our dynojet quick shifters cut fuel on upshifts there are transducers made by Showa that alot of the teams use to also cut ignition on downshifts as well.
My opinion, they are using it, but how many other teams are using it also.
This comes from a direct source, the Motec M4 can not accomplish the traction control. But the factory ecm's can. Hence why suzuki does not run motec. I know on a Honda, they need the HRC ignition from over seas, which the honda team fails to supply to the teams here in the states.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
814 Posts
Austin10RPowers said:
Great info Brandon! Could it be an accelerometer array that tells the bike's ecu that it has lateral forces (in a corner) ? Then no matter what the ham fisted rider does there will only be 3 cylinders to fire a wheelspin (not likely).
I wonder does it alternate which cylinder is shut off to minimize a fouled plug scenario? Heck, I just wonder.....nonetheless it works whether it is that or rectal sensor that detects pucker and shuts the cylinder off..LOL

dont think that fouled plug scenario's dont exist.. remember Mladin and Spies both having issues with the bike 'cutting out' in the recent past? something to think about..

there is a very memorable image of Ben Spies last year at Fontana whacking on/off the throttle going down the infield straight section, trying to get the bike to come back 'on.'
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
814 Posts
bman33 said:
I think it has to be more than traction control, because Aaron Yates has struggled this year, while Spies and Mladin have been the class of the field.
Aaron Yates is the blacksheep at Suzuki, until he won the Superstock championship his entire ride was in jeopardy. there was an announcement from Yoshimura last year a few rounds from the end of the season that Yosh was cutting back to 2 riders, but never officially listed which rider they were cutting.. obviously they're not cutting Mat or Ben.. who's left? then Aaron won the Superstock championship and suddenly all rumors disappeared.

i think Suzuki is smart.. if they give full support, or 'traction control' in this series.. the Suzuki's will finish 1-2-3 by a large margin at every race. obviously this wouldnt be good for the series and huge protests would arise from other manufacturers. it would be more than blatently obvious at that point that something would have to be changed.. but as it stands Suzuki doesn't want to draw too much from the pot.. so they do just enough to continue getting away with it. right now Aaron is their fall guy.. anytime anyone raises an eyebrow they mention 'oh but look at Aaron.. a string of 5th place finishes.. it cant be the bike, its the riders that are getting it done.' smart people, Suzuki.



If anyone on this forum really knew what the Yosh Suzuki team was doing, there are four other factory teams that would pay you a six figure salary to tell them.
this isnt true, all the teams do know exactly what's been going on. at that level of racing there is really no 'undiscovered territory.' the race engineers are well aware of what a motorcycle can do, and what technology they have available. their job is to come up with a key part that either sneaks in illegally under the radar, or to find a part that.. such as this.. isnt blatently illegal but gives them an advantage. Mat Mladin said it best in one of his columns, 'you can only engineer a motorcycle so much.. a motorcycle is a motorcycle.. i dont run cornerspeeds that much faster than the privateer teams.. physics only allows a motorcycle to corner at a certain speed and the privateer teams are working with the same rule of physics that we are.. we dont make faster laps in the corners on superbikes we make them into/out of the corners and on the power.' you can only make so much power within the rulebook.. the Gixxer motor isnt superior to the CBR1000RR or ZX10R or R1 or anything else, at that level of performance. you've gotta start thinking about the alternative ideas.. such as traction control, that the other teams haven't ventured into developing.

Plain and simple - Mladin and Spies get to WFO throttle and keep it there longer than the other guys. Atleast we have two guys this year, unlike the last two years where Mladin was all by himself.
Mat Mladin's DataLogger has shown a season average of WOT, last year, for 25 seconds more per race than any other competitor on the track. Duhammel, the Haydens, whomever else are all great riders... if the Suzuki didnt have some major advantage (traction control) the margin wouldn't be anywhere near this large. that isnt riding skill.. its technology.

lets look at Spies this year, even compared to last year.. what we can assume was his first trip around the track with traction control. did Ben all the sudden become ultra-competitive.. did he learn something in the last 4 months that he couldn't manage to figure out in 15 years of racing? no.. they gave him traction control and a year to adjust to it (yes, it absolutely takes at least this long to adjust.. Colin Edwards has reported that he STILL isnt entirely comfortable with the idea of whacking the throttle wide open in the middle of a corner, logic says not to) Ben adjusted and is now competitive.. not skill, technology.

I enjoyed the Fontana race for 4th - 7th. Those riders (Duhamel, Hodgson, Hayden and Bostrom) and bikes were running identical times and the racers were dicing - great stuff!
because they were on much closer-developed bikes with similar technology.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
814 Posts
luckz88 said:
Brandon where did you find that information? I am not calling you out I just think its very interesting and if there is an article someplace on it I would like to read it. Thanks for the info though.

it isnt posted in an article to my knowledge. i've got friends on other forums who are VERY inside. (for example, knew about the Dunlop Q's and 55 series street tires almost a year before the general public did.. he was also one of the first riders on the triple-compound slicks and bested his own personal lap record by 2 seconds with them alone, 1:31's at Louden -if i recall correctly- for the northerners)

so its mostly just second-hand to me from someone who's been told first hand.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
11,157 Posts
Abortions Suck said:
it isnt posted in an article to my knowledge. i've got friends on other forums who are VERY inside. (for example, knew about the Dunlop Q's and 55 series street tires almost a year before the general public did.. he was also one of the first riders on the triple-compound slicks and bested his own personal lap record by 2 seconds with them alone, 1:31's at Louden -if i recall correctly- for the northerners)

so its mostly just second-hand to me from someone who's been told first hand.

Thanks, I was just curious
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
47 Posts
Since Honda, Kawasaki and Ducati all have MotoGP programs, I would think that their factory-supported AMA Superbike teams would have access to cheated-up electronics. Considering Suzuki sucks hind tit in MotoGP, I would think that when it comes to producing tractionable power, the other three companies have a leg up.

It would be neat for AMA to require the winners to strap their bikes to a chassis dyno after the race for comparison purposes. AMA could make it harder to cheat up the electronics if they mandated stock, serial numbered ecm's and distributed them at the track each race weekend. Dunlop is the dominant tire supplier, so a spec-tire isn't necessary.

Otherwise, I say let the teams play (which is what AMA is doing) and may the best bike and rider win. I love my Kawasaki, but I never had any grand illusions of the Hayden brothers dominating Superbike like they did Supersport.
 
1 - 20 of 93 Posts
Top