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Hey guys im getting ready to order an ignition module and quickshifter for my 08 10, i was wondering if anybody has tried advancing there timing without a dyno tune and how successful you were, i know ivan has a map but you have to buy 200bucks worth of stuff to get his map
 

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T Double D
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are his maps that good?
 

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Different ambient conditions may render whoever´s map unworthy for you.
You´ll achieve your best power results by getting YOUR bike tuned by experienced people.
May you be able to properly tune your fuel map without a dyno? YES, if you get a wideband datalogger and do your homework (extensive road/track tests..)
BUT, you´ll never tune your ignition curve correctly without a dyno session.
Fueling will affect ignition requirements and vice versa as well.

My :2cents:
:thumbsup:
 

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Postwhore with an 04
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Buy the ignition module from Ivan, that covers the $200 bucks and you get both his fuel and timing map.


PS (I am a Sociopath) according to IVAN,
I just got my bike back from him and his work is flawless!!!

are his maps that good?
Yes and from talking to him I would have been fine ordering an ignition module with his map and didnt actually have to go down there and from talking to him I believe it. He really knows bikes especially the ZX-10R!

Different ambient conditions may render whoever´s map unworthy for you.
You´ll achieve your best power results by getting YOUR bike tuned by experienced people.
May you be able to properly tune your fuel map without a dyno? YES, if you get a wideband datalogger and do your homework (extensive road/track tests..)
BUT, you´ll never tune your ignition curve correctly without a dyno session.
Fueling will affect ignition requirements and vice versa as well.

My :2cents:
:thumbsup:
I have to disagree, I got my bike tuned by a shop using the wideband and I had dips in the power that they said could not be gotten rid of. Turns out the wideband was picking up resonance from the exhaust system and it was affecting the results causing the tuner to lean out my map when it wasn't necessary at all. If the dips were still there cross over tube headers help with the problem but I was fine without them. Ivan's map worked so well that it took him less time to tune my bike than the guy with the wideband and he got better results! He took one of my dips and gained 5 HP!! I have cams and thought I had to wait for them to get into power when I went full throttle and this was not true I just needed more fuel. Here is a comparison of the 2 and my butt dyno approves. Best money I think I've spent!!

ZX-10R Ivan vs feracci Dyno .jpg

and for kicks my 10 screaming on the dyno
 

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Postwhore with an 04
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4,387 Posts
I completely agree and thats why I abandoned the PCV as I see the wide-band aka "auto tunes" as being more hype than real. Not sure exactly what Ivan does but I think he tunes using CO instead which is unburned hydrocarbons or gas measurement versus wide-band 02 and to me that is the better way of actually doing it.

Resonance, (exhaust sucking backwards fooling 02 sensor) would not be a factor when tuning using CO.
You are correct! From what I saw its much better. Talking on the phone we were considering velocity stacks to take care of my high dip and maybe seeing if I could get cross tubes welded in to take care of the low dip but he was able to fix them by just adding fuel due to issues from using the wideband. He could have told me I should do them and I would have, he even said his supplier had a deal on the stacks, but I didnt need them and he told me so, real stand up guy in my book.
 

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Agree in part with you guys; but an experienced tuner will disregard the wideband reading and try some other fuel ratio over the dip to try to flatten it out.
The red curve is better but, other from that midrange dip, there's not the hell of a difference. Your bike was running pretty strong so far.
The fact that some people is using a CO analyzer instead of a wideband does not rule it out or render it obsolete. In experienced hands, such as Ivan's, I'm completely sure he is able to acchive the same results with either equipment. He just needs/wants to stay out the croud so his choice and argument, absolutely respectable.
MHO.:thumbsup:
 

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agree in part with you guys; but an experienced tuner will disregard the wideband reading and try some other fuel ratio over the dip to try to flatten it out.
The red curve is better but, other from that midrange dip, there's not the hell of a difference. Your bike was running pretty strong so far.
The fact that some people is using a co analyzer instead of a wideband does not rule it out or render it obsolete. In experienced hands, such as ivan's, i'm completely sure he is able to acchive the same results with either equipment. He just needs/wants to stay out the croud so his choice and argument, absolutely respectable.
Mho.:thumbsup:
:+1:
 

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Postwhore with an 04
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Agree in part with you guys; but an experienced tuner will disregard the wideband reading and try some other fuel ratio over the dip to try to flatten it out.
The red curve is better but, other from that midrange dip, there's not the hell of a difference. Your bike was running pretty strong so far.
The fact that some people is using a CO analyzer instead of a wideband does not rule it out or render it obsolete. In experienced hands, such as Ivan's, I'm completely sure he is able to acchive the same results with either equipment. He just needs/wants to stay out the croud so his choice and argument, absolutely respectable.
MHO.:thumbsup:
That could be true but if teh wideband has the issues and the tuner needs to know to try to add some fuel isnt the CO analyzer an easier and in this case more acurate method? Also Ivan is able to reuse the same map since the CO analyzer does not pick up the errors the wideband does making the bike run great if you just order the IM with his map and save the cost of a dyno tune.

The other problem is good tuners are getting harder and harder to find. Ivan was 2.5 hours from me and the place I originally got tuned at was a little over an hour away and there were not many others in the area.
 

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Agree in part with you guys; but an experienced tuner will disregard the wideband reading and try some other fuel ratio over the dip to try to flatten it out.
The red curve is better but, other from that midrange dip, there's not the hell of a difference. Your bike was running pretty strong so far.
The fact that some people is using a CO analyzer instead of a wideband does not rule it out or render it obsolete. In experienced hands, such as Ivan's, I'm completely sure he is able to acchive the same results with either equipment. He just needs/wants to stay out the croud so his choice and argument, absolutely respectable.
MHO.:thumbsup:

Widebands bounce all over the place.... Wrong tool for the job in my opinion.... I could never get the results that I do with a wideband.

If there were no resonance, (turbo application or car with catalytic converters, then they work kinda ok) Anything that cools the sensor whether it be a reduction in throttle position, resonance induced dilution (which should read lean) all make the wideband say it's rich...... You could go to a dyno tuner with a wideband on 3 different days and get 3 different maps... all very different from each other.

It's not that every bike is different with the same mods, it's the wideband's erratic readings that bounce all over the place !!

This is why I don't own this equipment... I'd be chasing my tail endlessly.

Initial map development takes a lot more time with a CO meter.... But I don't care because I want everyone's bike who does business with us to run awesome.



Ivan :wink:
 

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Hi Ivan, first of all to tell you that´s my pleasure and honour to share a post with one of the best tuners in the US.:eek:ccasion1
I´m just an amateur, so my posts are based on my own experience on my bikes, but sometimes I cheat a bit (aka "learn" - who doesn´t?) from one of my closed friends who is the best motorcycle tuner here in my country, and of course from other forum members experience whose knowledge is evident :thumbsup:

I do share with you that the CO analyzer is the state of the art way of tuning the AFR. No doubts and I don´t want to argue with that.

But the question now is what is the approach of the wideband based tuning in relation to the CO based?
If we disregard the resonance affected areas of the rpm range (dips) would you accept that a good tuning based on wideband reading will deliver a power curve 99% similar to that obtainable with CO tuning?
Even external factors like the air exchange and the exhaust gases removal from the dyno room will have extensive effects in the power output. I´ve seen 5% difference between the 2nd and the 10th run, same map, just for rarefied room air.
I know from own experience that a dip/spikes can be solved in an hour just testing slight changes in the ratio (not an r1 dip though..:badteeth:)

Regarding same bikes with same mods, I agree that they are pretty similar being new bikes, and being in the same area.

Factors like total mileage will affect valve timing, valve lash, compression, injectors matching, and many people that seek for a map does not go extensively over the bikes maintenence prior to uploading a map, so this factors may turn every bike different from each other with same mods.
People living in other zones, in other altitudes, temperatures and even humidity, other fuels, will not take full advantage of a perfect map obtained in other place, so I´m a big promoter of everyone tuning their own bikes and not expect the best from someone else´s tuning in their owns.
 

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T Double D
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so let me get this straight if i spend 200 bucks at ivans ( and theres a bunch of stuff i want from his site and the ignition module ) i get his maps too? i think im gonna call him on my off day if this is true on monday
 

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Hi Ivan, first of all to tell you that´s my pleasure and honour to share a post with one of the best tuners in the US.:eek:ccasion1 Thanks for the compliment - much appreciated !! :smile:
I´m just an amateur, so my posts are based on my own experience on my bikes, but sometimes I cheat a bit (aka "learn" - who doesn´t?) from one of my closed friends who is the best motorcycle tuner here in my country, and of course from other forum members experience whose knowledge is evident :thumbsup:

I do share with you that the CO analyzer is the state of the art way of tuning the AFR. No doubts and I don´t want to argue with that.

But the question now is what is the approach of the wideband based tuning in relation to the CO based?

Wideband sensors work well in cars with catalytic converters when the sensor is located upstream from the cat (due to more even temps and no resonance) and also with turbo applications
(no resonance due to the impeller).

High resonance exhaust systems will make the readings bounce all over the place from the different effects of fresh air entering the exhaust from the back, differences in exhaust temps at part throttle vs. full throttle are just a few of the things that affect the accuracy of it's readings.

The best sensor location is very close to the exhaust port, but this is not feasable for dyno shops.
There is not much difference in the readings when the sensor is put into the muffler or in the collector.... the gas temps and resonance effects are still present in those locations.

This can easily be seen by looking at the maps that are made with these sensors..... the values will bounce all over the place. (the factory programming isn't that far off from a 500 rpm change or a 20% change in throttle position (looking at one cell to the next in the map). Going to the same dyno on 3 different days will give 3 different maps with this type of exhaust sampling equipment.

Load conditions are also an important factor when trying to tune..... too much load will give wrong readings too..... they need to be similar to what the bike sees on the road.... steady state tests are useless because the engine never sees that condition and tuning in this condition will get the bike too lean for max power during heavy acceleration.

The bike's EFI system sensor temps are also important because when the bike gets hotter than it would on the road, all the sensors readings will be different than what the bike normally sees.... adjusting fuel and timing under these conditions will result in a less than optimal result to say the least.

A real EGA is still the most accurate way to tune a bike with a pipe with no cat..... it is just way more time consuming because the analyzer's readings are slightly behind where the engine is at (rpms) so it takes more time to get things matched up and the readings fairly consistent. Most dyno shops want instant readings and don't want to spend a couple of days making adjustments for each bike.

If we disregard the resonance affected areas of the rpm range (dips) would you accept that a good tuning based on wideband reading will deliver a power curve 99% similar to that obtainable with CO tuning?

No, I would not agree with this.... Not on a bike with no catalytic converter and a high resonance exhaust with high overlap cams... the only part that may come out ok is the upper portion of the power peak at wide open throttle....and only if the tuner understands the whole EFI system as a whole.... tuning to a flat A/F ratio across the board will not work well because this bike's ram air compensation comes from the speed sensor and it should be richer as the bike increases speed on the dyno. All part throttle readings will bounce all over the place due to all the things that affect the wideband's readings... this is evidenced in all the maps that are made with them.


Even external factors like the air exchange and the exhaust gases removal from the dyno room will have extensive effects in the power output. I´ve seen 5% difference between the 2nd and the 10th run, same map, just for rarefied room air.

You definetly need a good ventilation system when tuning.... the fumes make you sick as well :smile:

I know from own experience that a dip/spikes can be solved in an hour just testing slight changes in the ratio (not an r1 dip though..:badteeth:)
If the dip responds to adding or taking away fuel/timing then it can be smoothed out, if it does not respond to these changes, then it is a trapping efficiency problem.... a different pipe design or different intake length, cam timing may be required help it out.

Regarding same bikes with same mods, I agree that they are pretty similar being new bikes, and being in the same area. This is partially correct - I don't agree about the same area or newness. Similar mods = same map :smile:

Factors like total mileage will affect valve timing (slightly), valve lash, compression, injectors matching, and many people that seek for a map does not go extensively over the bikes maintenence prior to uploading a map, so this factors may turn every bike different from each other with same mods.
I don't agree with this either... :smile: These are all very small differences that don't add up to much.

People living in other zones, in other altitudes, temperatures and even humidity, other fuels, will not take full advantage of a perfect map obtained in other place, so I´m a big promoter of everyone tuning their own bikes and not expect the best from someone else´s tuning in their owns.
Again, these are all very small differences that don't add up to very much as long as the fuel is pump fuel.... all of my stuff for the last 5 years is done with 10% ethanol fuel.... the CO readings have not changed more than 1/2 of 1 % when I tested with and without ethanol...
(when we had it in the winter only)....
The bike will compensate for weather and altitude changes... this is what it has all it's sensors for. :smile: If someone tunes their bike with the same type of equipment as I use, and he is a knowledgeable guy, there will be very few and minor changes made. (if any at all) There won't be any difference that can be felt.
If someone uses a drastically different pipe design than what I did my tuning with, then things will be different.... All of what I am referring to here is relevant to a basically stock motor. (98% of everyone here)

Basically stock means to me:
Pipe, air filter, head gasket, stacks.... the usual mods.
This does not include sub-throttle removal




Ivan :smile:
 
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