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Discussion Starter #1
My daughter sent me this from Iraq....she is in an 18 month tour....suggestions?

"Dad,

I am having some serious issues out here with my chain of command and I need some advice from you and your military friends. Basically, yesterday, while walking to the chow hall, I failed to render the greeting of the day to the Command Sergeant Major and the Colonel, both of whom I did not see because I was standing in between two t-wall barriers. When I was on the spot corrected I went to parade rest and said nothing but Roger that Sergeant Major, I was told I was not allowed to speak, and that I hoped I liked being an E-5 because I wouldn't be one by the end of the day. He then said for me to get my entire chain of command in his office in one hour. I took my chain of command in there and he told me I was disrespectful to him and the colonel and that I was nothing to him because I was a Military Intelligence soldier and that we were worthless to the fight out here, he said because I was not a tanker or grunt I was useless. And because I was disrespectful I was to get on a plane tonight to Taji, with another unit because he didn't want to see my face anymore.

After this tranpired by immediate supervisors fought so that I wouldn't be moved. the Squadron Sergeant Major ordered me to his office with my chain of command and told me that I have always been disrespectful to him and others and that I was to be given a field grade article 15, relief for cause NCOER and I was to be permanently moved to work under him doing non-intel related work so that he could teach me how to be a non-commissioned officer. Now, I have already contacted the Equal Opportunity, Inspector general, I have a lawyer, I've written to my congressman, I've been to the chaplain. No-one can help me get out of my hostile work environment. I have never received a negative counseling from anyone in the 2 years of being in the ARMY. I won soldier of the year at this Sergaent Major's Board last year. And they are making an example out of me now."
 

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Didn't she have some issues last year Steve with some higher ups disrespecting her? :dontknow: Connection?
 

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Suck it up and show the SM that she can take his crap and drive on. First off she should have been at the position of attention if a colonel was there. So other than the fact that its a combat zone last time I was there and you give no salutes so that foreign operatives wouldn't know the rank of people. You cant beat the system. Its structured so that ncos lead by example. Showing the SM that she can handle what he puts out will work much better for her in the long run. As always there are 2 sides to the story. We where not there so what happened can be totally different that what you are told. not saying your daughter is a lier but the way someone perceives the situation can be way different than what really happened. i am not sure how she became an e5 in under 2 years. That is also the problem with the military the promote people way to early.
 

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inappropriate
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she is in an unfortunate position for the following reasons:

-i would highly suggest she files an IG (inspector general) complaint which goes over everyone's head. but i guarantee there are to many IG complaints out in the "sandbox". the thing is, there is way to much rank over there and with that comes dicks heads like she faces and stupid rules and regulations.

-but before any trouble comes of this contact JAG and get a lawyer. dont take any action nor accept any actions against you. once youve contacted a jag lawyer you can make that public in any action.

-however, the military has ways to "quarantine" who they deem "bad seeds" by secluding them in jobs out of their view.


as shitty as this sounds TOPHER is right.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Didn't she have some issues last year Steve with some higher ups disrespecting her? :dontknow: Connection?
Yeah...she has a mouth on her....she is also smarter than any of the other people in Army Intel and they resent that...

Then there is all the sexual harassment stuff...
 

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Suck it up and show the SM that she can take his crap and drive on. First off she should have been at the position of attention if a colonel was there. So other than the fact that its a combat zone last time I was there and you give no salutes so that foreign operatives wouldn't know the rank of people. You cant beat the system. Its structured so that ncos lead by example. Showing the SM that she can handle what he puts out will work much better for her in the long run. As always there are 2 sides to the story. We where not there so what happened can be totally different that what you are told. not saying your daughter is a lier but the way someone perceives the situation can be way different than what really happened. i am not sure how she became an e5 in under 2 years. That is also the problem with the military the promote people way to early.
:+1:

I have to say I am with Topher on this one. 1. She should of surely been at the position of attention, unless the SgtMaj or Col told her at ease and even then she should of went to parade rest, so yes I can see where they say she was actually being disrespectful. 2. Topher was right again at saying that her being a E5 under 2 years, probably added to the situation, because she is so inexperienced that she didn't know any better. I know if I saw one of my Sgts talking to the SgtMaj or Col and were not at the position of attention, even if they (SgtMaj...Col) didn't say anything, I would still get in the ass later. 3. I always have hated the saying Roger that, because I get the feeling that my Marines are basicly saying whatever in the back of their mind.

But for her to have to go back to her own squadron and have her own SgtMaj tell her, she has always been disrespectful to him is B.S., because if that's true, it should of been addressed a long time ago, and not brought up at this time. And she said she won the squadrons SgtMaj board for soldier of the year, tells me that her command has some issues. I kind of think she has a case, and then again I don't. Regardless, like Hesaves stated, that shit would get swept under the table.

Now don't take offense to any of this, or what anybody else says, because you have so many reasons to be proud of your daughter, maybe my daughter will grow up to be as brave as yours. :eek:ccasion1

Good Luck and Semper Fi to ALL the military members
 

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I kind of think that this SMag and the colonel are dick heads. I mean for them to be the rank they are they would have to have been in the Army 18+ years already so why are they worried about a 2 year Sgt. giving a greeting in a combat zone? I am not in the Army "Marines" but if I was her I would suck it up and do what it is the Commander wants, avoid any bad paperwork that would look bad on any future promotion warrants, and then when she gets back to ConUS she can file a grievance with the Army command. It seems kind of trivial to me that these guys would be like this to her unless she did something to provoke it.
 

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More to the story

Seems there's definitely more to the story than what's above. When I was in Afghanistan, a salute was still the order of business but you wouldn't see it taken to this extreme if one wasn't properly rendered. An ass chewin and move on out for the most part. I would assume a Sgt Maj and a Col would have bigger fish to fry and wouldn't spend that amount of time and energy for someone simply not saluting. At any rate I'm AIR FORCE so I won't claim to be the expert in Army mentality. In comparison, it is fact that enlisted promotion on this side is slower than the other branches. E-4 comes at 3 yrs, 30 months at the earliest. She made E-5 in under 2 yrs...She definitely needs to find some SOLID NCOS to help her with the inexperience. Smart or not, I don't think you can learn how to be a highly effective NCO and be thoroughly proficient at your job in that amount of time. That's just a lot of ground to cover honestly. Most Airmen are barely out of their initial phase of training by then, and that's assuming you had a very short technical school and went to your first duty station right away. My .02

AFMEDIC
 

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Seems there's definitely more to the story than what's above. When I was in Afghanistan, a salute was still the order of business but you wouldn't see it taken to this extreme if one wasn't properly rendered. An ass chewin and move on out for the most part. I would assume a Sgt Maj and a Col would have bigger fish to fry and wouldn't spend that amount of time and energy for someone simply not saluting. At any rate I'm AIR FORCE so I won't claim to be the expert in Army mentality. In comparison, it is fact that enlisted promotion on this side is slower than the other branches. E-4 comes at 3 yrs, 30 months at the earliest. She made E-5 in under 2 yrs...She definitely needs to find some SOLID NCOS to help her with the inexperience. Smart or not, I don't think you can learn how to be a highly effective NCO and be thoroughly proficient at your job in that amount of time. That's just a lot of ground to cover honestly. Most Airmen are barely out of their initial phase of training by then, and that's assuming you had a very short technical school and went to your first duty station right away. My .02

AFMEDIC
ABSOLUTELY100% COULDNT AGREE ANYMORE...but the army is accustomed to this and their NCO's arent as groomed as ours. even now w the air force promoting younger staff's (e-5) with its smaller force we experience that problem, and its suck but its baptism under fire for some.
 

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It's a bit of a predicament because if she decides to fight the action taken against her, she can end-up opening a huge can of worms and end-up making matters a lot worse. As long as she was not demoted, I would let it go and count the days until my tour is over unless this is just the start of more shit to come down on her. Talking to the chaplain was smart, I don't know if there's anything a congressman would do about a reassignment situation. At least she know establishes some type of persecution by talking to the chaplain and if she starts getting harrassed and assigned to shit jobs, then she has established a motive that can be viewed as discriminatory. She's probably going a little too overboard right now with the lawyer and everything else unless she's looking to get out of Iraq.

BTW, my son also made E-5 in two years but he was with the 82 airborne and was a squad leader. He actually made E-6 in little less than 5 years while a reservist and is now a Drill Sargeant in the reserves.
 

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I also made e 6 in under 5 years then you have to wait till 10 year the get e7. But that is not the point. I also did the (at the time) min amount of time in grade to get e5. It use to be totally different. you couldnt get promoted to sgt before about 3 years no matter how you sliced it. I am not doubting that your daughter is smart but I would guess she isnt the smartest person in her unit. I would think she puts an attitude like she is better than everyone else and its getting her ass chewed because of it. You do as you like and have her take whatever action she sees fit but I think in the end they have made a much better paper trail than she has. I know from exp that we establish a paper trail for trouble makers and establish a long line of situations where military law and ucmj hasnt been followed. Then when the soldier goes to IG and cries how bad life has been and how they are treated unfair we show how that isnt true. SOOO like I said before just show the SM that she is a better person that can take the shit. Then it wont be worth his time. he isnt getting the reaction he wants from her and then she wins. Trust me that is the way to win in this situation.
 

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Well, what to say. If the CSM and the COL both saw things this way, I would assume that is the way that things happened. Being deployed in the big sandbox does have a way of changing people. Often people will do little things that do not mean alot to them, but they build up in others.
I do not know your daughter and am not in the situation that she is in. I am in the military and I am an officer. Being prior enlisted as an E6, I know how the NCO side of the house is run.
Your daughter does need to understand that she is in theater and things are different. I am not laying blame on her, but maybe she needs to lay low and not sweat the small stuff. This is the military and a little more respect than needed and a little more humility can go a long way.
If she is in a bad situation and has a poor chain of command, she can complain, but ultimately she needs to complete her time over there and move on.

Good Luck
 

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Discussion Starter #13
I just got this from her:

You can tell you buddies this dad, first of all, the colonel was not present for my ass chewing, he continued walking and then the CSM called me over to him. You do not stand at the position of attention for a CSM. I did everything correctly, only spoke when I was told I was allowed to so you can tell your military buddies who resent the fact that I made E-5 in 18 months that I plan on making e-7 in 7. Furthermore, the only paper trail I have is one of awards. Like I said, soldier of the year, education soldier of the year, and my paperwork for an MSM is underway because MND-N decided to use my targeting packages to teach 10th mountain and the 101st as well as other units back at Quantico how to be an effective targeting analyst. I was directed by IG to call legal services so I did.
 

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Well after that email and reading the first email again I can see why she is in trouble again and again. What always brings such a smile to my face is how they never do anything wrong. She didnt do anything the last complaint you had either. Somehow I would guess that she isnt even in the same unit anymore. So this problem follows her around. Remember I am not your BUDDY per say. We discuss things on a motorcycle web site. I am a superior nco in the army structure to her and so are most of the other people who respond here. I must say this, if she ever finds herself in my unit while deployed I can promise you that she would have even more trouble than she is in now. He lack of maturity shows with her email. She must remember that we dont give a shit that she was promoted we care that she should be a good nco and that has to do with leadership skill and the ability to overcome adversity. The only thing I see is an immature soldier trying to blame everyone else for her attitude. I think she will be better off doing what I had suggested before. Try to make some friends with people instead of pointing the finger at people.
 

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There has to be more to the story than this... Also if they give her a Relief For Cause NCOER, it will be a LONG time before she makes E-7! The promotion board for E-7 thru E-9 is all centralized and they review ALL of the Soldiers previous NCOER's. A common misconception is that they only review the last 5 NCOER's. That's not true! A Relief For Cause could really hurt her.

Not trying to downplay her accusations but..... there is ALWAYS an issue with your daughter and the units that she works with. You say she has a mouth on her and along with that comes non-verbal jestures. If she displayed ANY non-verbal jestures then she is being disrespectful and can face UCMJ action for this. I am an E-7 in the Army and I deal with young Soldiers and their attitudes EVERYDAY!!! I have about 50 Soldiers that have been in the Army for 1 year or less. They have a lot to learn. The fact that she got promoted fast basically says that she knows how to study. This does NOT make her a leader. In the Army the E-5 and E-6 board is as simple as sitting in front of a panel of 5 senior NCO's and answering questions. They are scored on their performance and granted a maximum of 150 promotion points.

My point is, it takes more than rank to make a leader and with only 2 years in the service she has a long way to go. She should realize this and continue to learn as much as she can everyday! As I mentioned, I am an E-7 and I still take everyday as a learning experience.
 

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Hey Older Guy,

Not to pile on your daughter, but I have to say that I think Topher has a very strong point. She truly needs to suck it up unless she's being demoted in rank, do her time there, and move-on if she truly intends to become an E-7. With the attitude she's presenting right now according to the way she's handling this issue and in responding to some of the advice and criticism offered here, it's obvious there's a little bit of a 'chip on the shoulder" type attitude. If she's as smart as you say and she believes, she should be able to figure this one out on her own. I was an E-7 in the Navy myself and had many different types of personalities work for me; I assure you, from what I gather here, she would be the one I would look to move to a different department. Please do not take offense to what I say, I'm just telling you from personal experience and from what little I know about the situation from listening to her side only. One thing she needs to learn is that she's not going to buck the system; if she doesn't like it, she's got 2 choices (well at least two viable choices), get out or learn to play the game...

Once again, please understand I am not trying to offend you; I don't know you or your daughter and I definitely do not know all the details of what's going on, but I have a bit of experience dealing with these type of issues and I only offer an honest opinion...
 

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Discussion Starter #18 (Edited)
Just got this from her:

Is the Army really this frucked up, or does she have an attitude problem?

Dad I don't think you realize how bad this situation is. When they read me my rights and my ART 15 tomorrow, I have the option of either taking it or requesting a trial by court martial, I will not take this as I did nothing wrong and they have no paperwork of me ever being a disciplinary problem. If i lose the court martial (this means my Colonel and Sergaent major have to take the stand) I get character witnesses of course, but I lose everything, my security clearance, my rank, pay for a month and I may even be dishonorably discharged from the ARMY. Do you understand the gravity of the situation now?
 

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Just got this from her:

Dad I don't think you realize how bad this situation is. When they read me my rights and my ART 15 tomorrow, I have the option of either taking it or requesting a trial by court martial, I will not take this as I did nothing wrong and they have no paperwork of me ever being a disciplinary problem. If i lose the court martial (this means my Colonel and Sergaent major have to take the stand) I get character witnesses of course, but I lose everything, my security clearance, my rank, pay for a month and I may even be dishonorably discharged from the ARMY. Do you understand the gravity of the situation now?
OG, tell her to take the Article 15, she may get reduction in Rank and some Kitchen duty but if she looses and most likely will than that is a FELONY and she will never get a good job when she gets out or will always the rest of her life have to check that Box "Have you ever been convicted of a FELONY".

Article 15 in this instance could be just a slap on the wrist and she can still salvage her career if she so chooses. Good luck to both of you whatever she decides.

bloo
 

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What did her lawyer say? Some times it is better to take the situation to court marshal...Alot of times the chain of command tries to force article 15's for things that won't hold up in court...I've seen people take article 15's for bogus stuff and have even inquired about the situations...I was told if they turned down the 15 they would just drop it...Pretty messed up...Of course I don't know all the details and am not extemely familiar with the Army way...I am however an E-6 in the Air Force...My neighbor in the Army has been promoted and demoted several times and I have no idea what his current rank is...I just know at one time he was an E-5

Last thought...even though she may not be in the same command (not sure) I can guarantee you this, her current command knows all about those issues she had before.
 
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