going from a 190 to a 200/55

7800 Views 22 Replies 7 Participants Last post by Wwilmoth, 10 mo ago

mpp12

Discussion Starter · Aug 3, 2017

any benefit going that route...
I do occasional track days..

how much will it raise the back?

1 - 20 of 23 Posts

evallarta1

· #2 · Aug 3, 2017

Brand? A 190/what?

In general, when you go to a larger tire you flatten out the swingarm angle and take away rake and trail. What does this mean? The bike as a whole will steer a bit better BUT could take away drive grip (drive wide on exit).

Something to take into consideration is you have more rotational mass on the rear tire with a 200, which will change your acceleration and probably your shift points. Also (lemme see if I can explain this easily) take a specific corner and go through it at the same speed and line on each tire, the 200 will require you to add more lean to get the same arc vs the 190.

The advantage of a 200 is you have more surface width to work with vs the 190. Also profiles are sometimes different.

Overall going to a larger tire isnt a big deal as long as you make the proper changes to account for size and weight.

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Victors

· #3 · Aug 3, 2017

If youre just doing it because it looks cool.. dont

mpp12

Discussion Starter · #4 · Aug 3, 2017

thanks for the info...

no, couldn't care less for looks, my track day plastics are like from a mad max movie....

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Capncalyx

· #5 · Aug 3, 2017

Tire profile is beginning to mean a lot more to me these last few years. Im curious about the contact patch difference between a sharply or aggressive profile tire in a 190/55 and the patch of a regular 200 (do 200's have 50/55 profiles??). Eva what say you? I dont think ive ridden a tire with a sharp V profile but ive had fairly aggressive profiles before and enjoyed them. Wouldnt a nice pointed 190/55 give a similar contact patch of a 200? Is the difference negligible and it comes down to weight?? Just wondering out loud here.

mpp12

Discussion Starter · #6 · Aug 3, 2017

It depends... in the paper of course.. in a RS10 the contact patch is 10mm diference in a S21 is 6mm from 190/55 to 200/55...

look at the pics

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Capncalyx

· #7 · Aug 3, 2017

See now this is interesting to me. Cant remember what the more sharp profiled tires are - maybe Dunlops? Miche's?

evallarta1

· #8 · Aug 3, 2017

I think before you continue further down this path a few definitions needs to be clarified. We have the same terms being used in different ways.

We like to use the term contact patch as the physical connection with the ground and the tire. The size of the contact patch itself is generally controlled with pressure in the tire. But it is also manipulated by g-forces.

The width of the tire generally dictates the lean angle abilities.

Capncalyx said:
Tire profile is beginning to mean a lot more to me these last few years. Im curious about the contact patch difference between a sharply or aggressive profile tire in a 190/55 and the patch of a regular 200 (do 200's have 50/55 profiles??). Eva what say you? I dont think ive ridden a tire with a sharp V profile but ive had fairly aggressive profiles before and enjoyed them. Wouldnt a nice pointed 190/55 give a similar contact patch of a 200? Is the difference negligible and it comes down to weight?? Just wondering out loud here.

Tire profile is going to change how the bike tips in. Think about running a tire that has a flat spot worn in the middle. If the flat spot is aggressive then the bike "falls" once it hits that spot.

mpp12 said:
It depends... in the paper of course.. in a RS10 the contact patch is 10mm diference in a S21 is 6mm from 190/55 to 200/55...

look at the pics

In the case of the R10, the difference in tire size will take out about .5 mm of trail and .1 degree of swingarm angle. These are VERY loose numbers but gives you an idea. Overall it will probably make the bike turn in better without sacrificing very much drive grip. Worst case scenario you could add a smidge of preload in the shock to compensate.

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Capncalyx

· #9 · Aug 3, 2017

I got that much but how do the contact patch's differ from a sharply angled 190/55 profile to a "regular" profile of a 200? Or am i wrong thinking that someone, or two manufacturers, make a fairly aggressive V profiled tire? Maybe im not explaining myself well...which happens a lot lol. Instead of going to 200 couldnt you just run a much sharper profiled 190/55??

evallarta1

· #10 · Aug 3, 2017

Capncalyx said:
I got that much but how do the contact patch's differ from a sharply angled 190/55 profile to a "regular" profile of a 200? Or am i wrong thinking that someone, or two manufacturers, make a fairly aggressive V profiled tire? Maybe im not explaining myself well...which happens a lot lol. Instead of going to 200 couldnt you just run a much sharper profiled 190/55??

Profile will not affect the contact patch, pressure will.

Capncalyx

· #11 · Aug 3, 2017

Got it!

mpp12

Discussion Starter · #12 · Aug 3, 2017

Nice....

So in the case of S21 (which I'm running) it will affect probably the same way...

one turn of the preload in the nitron shock... sounds not complicated.

i got the idea of the contact patch... I was running 33 psi cold then changed it to 31 and the bike was better grip..

nakedinseattle

· #13 · Aug 3, 2017

evallarta1 said:
Profile will not affect the contact patch, pressure will.

unless it's a pirelli that changes its profile midcorner to generate a larger contact patch >

evallarta1

· #14 · Aug 3, 2017

evallarta1 said:
I think before you continue further down this path a few definitions needs to be clarified. We have the same terms being used in different ways.

We like to use the term contact patch as the physical connection with the ground and the tire. The size of the contact patch itself is generally controlled with pressure in the tire. But it is also manipulated by g-forces.

The width of the tire generally dictates the lean angle abilities.

Tire profile is going to change how the bike tips in. Think about running a tire that has a flat spot worn in the middle. If the flat spot is aggressive then the bike "falls" once it hits that spot.

In the case of the R10, the difference in tire size will take out about .5 mm of trail and .1 degree of swingarm angle. These are VERY loose numbers but gives you an idea. Overall it will probably make the bike turn in better without sacrificing very much drive grip. Worst case scenario you could add a smidge of preload in the shock to compensate.

nakedinseattle said:
unless it's a pirelli that changes its profile midcorner to generate a larger contact patch >

aka g-force. :biggrin:

evallarta1

· #15 · Aug 3, 2017

mpp12 said:
Nice....

So in the case of S21 (which I'm running) it will affect probably the same way...

one turn of the preload in the nitron shock... sounds not complicated.

i got the idea of the contact patch... I was running 33 psi cold then changed it to 31 and the bike was better grip..

Sorry I was thinking you were using the R10, on the S21 you actually get a 1 mm of reduced trail while only loosing .1 degree of swingarm angle. Overall I would guess you wont notice any drive grip issues. So don't add any preload until your ride the bike.

And I just wanted to point out the contact patch part because the term is thrown around a few different ways and don't want people to get confused.

LDH

· #16 · Aug 3, 2017

evallarta1 said:
Profile will not affect the contact patch, pressure will.

There may be some semantics involved here in our terminology, but I am not sure I agree with that statement. I mean yes I agree about the pressure, but I have witnessed first hand in actual measured area the increased contact patch at full lean from both a 180/55 to a 180/60 profile and from a 190/55 to a 200/60. In both instances the contact patch at max lean was larger with identical pressures.

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Capncalyx

· #17 · Aug 3, 2017 (Edited)

Holy schnikeys they make a 200/60?? Sounds kinda awesome. And ive always got the fact that a little less pressure gives a better contact patch, thats pretty simple. I was just curious about the contact patch of a very aggressive sharp profiled tire that tips in easy and thought those types would generate a similar contact area as going to a larger tire would. Still learning after all these years and not afraid to continue!

Edit - apologies if im :deadhorse

evallarta1

· #18 · Aug 3, 2017

LDH said:
There may be some semantics involved here in our terminology, but I am not sure I agree with that statement. I mean yes I agree about the pressure, but I have witnessed first hand in actual measured area the increased contact patch at full lean from both a 180/55 to a 180/60 profile and from a 190/55 to a 200/60. In both instances the contact patch at max lean was larger with identical pressures.

I am 100% on board with what you're saying, and 100% agree. We have also seen it during testing, BUT the percent seen/felt is marginal compared to tire pressure change, so in this conversation it wasn't worth bringing up.

Truthfully there are a number of variables that make up what a contact patch looks like, but I think this is a very slippery slope to go down.

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LDH

· #19 · Aug 3, 2017

evallarta1 said:
I am 100% on board with what you're saying, and 100% agree. We have also seen it during testing, BUT the percent seen/felt is marginal compared to tire pressure change, so in this conversation it wasn't worth bringing up.

Truthfully there are a number of variables that make up what a contact patch looks like, but I think this is a very slippery slope to go down.

Yes on all points! Pressure is the most critical, but yea carcass construction, belting direction, sidewall rigidity even weight bias of the bike and geometry all totally agree... My only real bullet that I didn't get out like I wanted to is that when you have so little contact patch on the ground in the middle of a corner anyway (comparatively from a motorcycle tire to a car tire) that more, regardless of how small the increase, is always beneficial.

Reactions: 2

LDH

· #20 · Aug 3, 2017

Capncalyx said:
Holy schnikeys they make a 200/60?? Sounds kinda awesome

& Yea bro, big boy tires :wink2:

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