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All of your points are entirely spot on. However, the massive thing I notice missing in your breakdown is the mention of rotating inertia. No matter what suspension setup you dial in, absolutely nothing invented to this point has been able to counteract the gyroscopic forces of big heavy 1000 parts slinging around almost as fast as smaller 600 parts. Mladin and Doyle in Sonoma measured trap speeds through 6 at infineon and compared vs Yates on the 600FX bike. What they found was the 600 was pulling 5-7mph fairly consistently on the superbike.

The reason this was launched was Honda's big push to turn 600FX bikes into "superbike," class under the guise of safety. The argument was made by everyone (read: not honda) was that the higher corner speeds were contributing to the lack of safety, not big displacement. But, at the end of the day, essentially unlimited 600 vs. unlimited superbike.. the 600's still run faster through the corner. It's not really curb weight, it isn't really setup, it's not budget. It's rotational inertia.

One interesting thing of mention is how much longer the BSB/SBK swingarm is than the factory arm. They're trying to have the best of both worlds, as LDS was speaking to. Trying to keep wheelbase short as possible, while leveraging against big HP.. flickability vs. driving hard off of corner exit.
Exactly right, thanks for adding that. And the chassis has to be strong enough to handle the horsepower, the brakes strong enough to haul the bike down from higher top speeds. So all the components are heavier on a 1000.

If we apply latest tech to either displacement, the disparity will always remain.
 

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Gonna be following this close...WSB testing was very positive.
From a club racers perspective, the MotoAmerica testing is way more relevant. As has been stated 1000 times by LDH, the WSBK factory bikes are nowhere near what we buy from the showroom floor. So, their testing reveals the maximum potential of the bike, but not much useful info for us mere mortals.
 

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Discussion Starter #44
Back to topic.
After reading post #11 (evallarta1), I'm thinking what should we do about 2016 geometry then?
How much stuck are we with exessive trail when we shoud not raise rear because swingarm angle may be perfect already?

Lets say we are not moving swingarm pivot (stays standard) and try to get rake from 25 to 24 to steer better.
We lower front some 20mm (almost an inch) and set swingarm angle to 12.5 after that.
Let's assume doing this we got acceptable trail number (rake arround 24 degrees).

Questions:
Trail, rake, swingarm numbers are better now, but are we now having problem with too much weigth on front tyre, beacuse front was lowered too much??
Now lets use swingarm kit inserts and move pivot point down as much as possible, put forks to standard and set swingarm angle to "twelve comma something".
How much does new swingarm pivot position help reduce trail (and rake)?
Will it be enough to get trail in ballpark for fast A group rider?
Or are in addition triple clamps with bigger offset needed?
Man that's such a hard question to answer due to so many variables. Just changing tire manufacture and/or size can change geometry drastically. Perfect example is I have a guy who changed from Pirelli DOTs to Bridgestone Slicks, and after seeing the numbers, I wont let him get on the bike due to a really bad setup. And the bike was perfectly setup for him on the Pirellis.

In addition, every rider is different. Yes, there is a range that most people fall into for geometry setup, but feedback is just as important. So a bike that one person riders may feel perfect, but than throw someone else on and if feels like garbage. Things like how you sit on the bike, how hard you are on the throttle, brakes, input of the bars etc all play a role in how a bike is setup.

And last thing to keep in mind, MotoAmerica has limited what riders can do to the bike in superstock. So for those guys they kind of have to work with what they got. Everyone else can use the race kit, a.m. triples etc and probably get a damn good setup. The big question is what's available, how big is your pocketbook, and finding the right combination. Truthfully, anything is possible with the right tools and parts.

Sorry I cant give you a clear cut answer, but it just doesnt work that way. There are just way too many variables to have a "magic setup" for every bike.
 

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From a club racers perspective, the MotoAmerica testing is way more relevant. As has been stated 1000 times by LDH, the WSBK factory bikes are nowhere near what we buy from the showroom floor. So, their testing reveals the maximum potential of the bike, but not much useful info for us mere mortals.
Yes, I got that, in fact the last two Gen's were designed to win WSBK based on that rule structure. So their potential in WSBK is the most important feature of their design, since that's the most prestigious series in which they'll be competing, and will produce (by far) the most publicity and sales of motorcycles.

MotoAmerica has not yet defined its role in motorcycle racing so we'll have to see how this year goes. I certainly hope the series picks up a bit but it's more than a little "backwater" at this point compared to the glory days of AMA Superbike. Media coverage is nearly non-existent, sketchy at best, and only a half-handful of riders are worth watching.

Rainey himself said he'd like to see open rivalries in the pits to spice things up, although I don't really recall much in the way of controversy when he was in the game. They kept that stuff on the down low, anyway, and he and Eddie are great friends, for years and years.:wink:
 

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I ride a gen 1 as well and have for 12 years. While I do understand that "there is no right for different uses" the 10r isn't made for different uses. Its a sport bike. That being said I can bet you that in general most folks will do faster lap times on a GSXR 750 than they will on a 1st gen 10R. The 1st gen 10 is inherently twitchy and unforgiving with a very raw power delivery. The Gixxer is much more forgiving. Certainly every rider is different but that's really not a part of the equation here. We are talking about chassis geometry. The fact is that certain chassis characteristics will cause the bike to behave in certain ways. All Im saying is that as a manufacturer I would think you would want to start with as close to a perfect set up as possible.
:thumbsup:
You're talkin lap times.. That would imply riding/racing on a track.

I ride back roads in the Sierra. My prep included street handle bars, Race Tec suspension internals for the rough roads, ZX6 rear shock linkage for solo rider, Scotts stabilizer/damper for aggressive behavior (front tire skittering over changing surfaces), narrower rear tire with 55 profile instead of the 50 profile.

I want raw power, and I don't have Twitchy.

You do your way... I do my way.
 

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FIM SST rules 2.6.10.2c "Steering stem pivot position must remain in the homologated position (as supplied on the production bike). If the standard bike has inserts then the orientation/position of the original insert may be changed but the insert cannot be replaced or modified.

^^Same statement for the swingarm pivot

so, it looks like KHI made the call that the SBK teams can use the race kit inserts per the FIM rules to dial in the perfect chassis setup, but to appease the cost and legal depts, the production bikes would have a more stable (less ideal for racing) front end geometry.

It's also interesting to read Rea's comments from the recent test in Jerez.
“It is clear that the new bike has been developed more for another riding style and it asks you to ride in a certain way,” Rea explained. “So we are still exploring exactly how to extract the best out of the bike and we have changed many things."
Source: WSBK News - Jerez - Testing: Rea: New Kawasaki suits different riding style
 

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Discussion Starter #50
FIM SST rules 2.6.10.2c "Steering stem pivot position must remain in the homologated position (as supplied on the production bike). If the standard bike has inserts then the orientation/position of the original insert may be changed but the insert cannot be replaced or modified.

^^Same statement for the swingarm pivot

so, it looks like KHI made the call that the SBK teams can use the race kit inserts per the FIM rules to dial in the perfect chassis setup, but to appease the cost and legal depts, the production bikes would have a more stable (less ideal for racing) front end geometry.
I've read this differently. SBK teams CANNOT use the race kit inserts. The teams must use the inserts that come with the bike from factory. They can just rotate the inserts to give a different orientation. But then again, rules are always up for interpretation....
 

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I've read this differently. SBK teams CANNOT use the race kit inserts. The teams must use the inserts that come with the bike from factory. They can just rotate the inserts to give a different orientation. But then again, rules are always up for interpretation....
This is driving me crazy waiting for racing season to start...probably have to purchase the videopass for WSBK (or whatever they call it).

MotoGP, new bikes this year too.
 

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I've read this differently. SBK teams CANNOT use the race kit inserts. The teams must use the inserts that come with the bike from factory. They can just rotate the inserts to give a different orientation. But then again, rules are always up for interpretation....
From the FIM SBK rules:

2.4.10.1 f
The steering stem axis/position may be adjusted by moving the steering
head bearings. The fore and aft position of each bearing can be a
maximum +/- 9 mm in respect to the original bearing location (excluding
tolerances). Fore and aft is considered along the original plane of the
bearing cup/insert, if no insert is fitted in the homologated machine
then it is considered along the plane of the original bearing seat.
a) If the homologated machine has exchangeable bearing inserts/
bushes: The bushings/inserts are free to make the above adjustment
and the homologated position is considered as the position in which
the production motorcycle is supplied.
b) If the homologated motorcycle has fixed bearing positions for the
steering stem: Steering angle changes are permitted by fitting inserts
onto the bearing seats of the original steering head. The original
bearing seats may be modified (ovaled) or increased in diameter
to insert special bushings. No part of these special bushings may
protrude axially more than 3 mm from the original steering head
pipe location nor may the bearing be inset. The steering head pipe
can be reinforced in the area of the bearing seats. Welding and
machining is allowed for the purpose of making these modifications.
 

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Back to topic.
After reading post #11 (evallarta1), I'm thinking what should we do about 2016 geometry then?
How much stuck are we with exessive trail when we shoud not raise rear because swingarm angle may be perfect already?

Lets say we are not moving swingarm pivot (stays standard) and try to get rake from 25 to 24 to steer better.
We lower front some 20mm (almost an inch) and set swingarm angle to 12.5 after that.
Let's assume doing this we got acceptable trail number (rake arround 24 degrees).

Questions:
Trail, rake, swingarm numbers are better now, but are we now having problem with too much weigth on front tyre, beacuse front was lowered too much??
Now lets use swingarm kit inserts and move pivot point down as much as possible, put forks to standard and set swingarm angle to "twelve comma something".
How much does new swingarm pivot position help reduce trail (and rake)?
Will it be enough to get trail in ballpark for fast A group rider?
Or are in addition triple clamps with bigger offset needed?
SuspAct North America
:grin2:
 

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And as I also said, mirroring LDH's comments (and they are spot-on) the stock version of this bike is tailored for street use. The steering is lazy, wheelbase long. Lazier and longer than than the Gen 4. These types of bikes are usually set up that way to at least help keep the front end down.

Whatever has been determined here by these measurements is somewhat speculative and KHI did not build a bike so they could lose the World title.

I was working with GMD Computrack very closely nearly twenty years ago and we won several championships with their help. This was long before anyone else was doing it.

This report is not much different than the dyno thread. The Gen 5 is going to prove to be a superb bike, in the right hands.

As some say "this thread is worthless without images" I say it is almost worthless without the measurements obtained other than than to stimulate another entertaining series of lively exchanges, lol!

Give us some numbers, we want numbers...
Numbers - with a few (key) items deleted
Tires are Moto America spec

Bike 1 EDIT
Bike name Kawasaki ZX10R 2016
Position Extended

Rake [deg] 25.29
Trail [mm] 115.54
Offset [mm] 25
Wheelbase [mm] 1449.1
Pivot height [mm] 453.7
Swing ang [deg] -12.23
COG (x;y) [mm] 764 ; 517

Swing length [mm] 590.92
Shock length [mm] 308.52
Pull rod length [mm] 145.11
Link ratio 2.095
Fork length 738.58

Front tire radius [mm] 303
Rear tire radius [mm] 328.5
Front sprocket teeth 17
Rear sprocket teeth 39
Squat angle [deg] 28.22
Load transfer angle [deg] 19.64
 

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Chuck! what's happening?

I used to race with Chuck in ARRA & AFM, maybe WERA too..

it's Terry Stephenson here (Kenny Kopeky's sidekick LOL)
hope you are doing well
 

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I stopped off and had Eric measure my bike on the way home from picking my bike up from the dealer. Here are the stock numbers we got:

Cool, now post up a comparison to the new values you're changing it to. I'm mostly interested in the swing arm down "sloope". :wink: :lol:

Seriously though, I'd love to see what changes are being made to help the bike. :ayyy:
 

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We were thinking the bike has too much trail but I noticed Chuck has even more trail in his numbers. I did order (and received) the shock shims from the race kit thinking I might shim it just a little. There are also inserts to reduce the rake to 23 or 23.5 degrees, and swingarm shims but hopefully I won't feel the need to change any of that. I'm probably not good enough to tell the difference anyway. :)
 
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