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Discussion Starter #1
Hi,

so i have bazzaz with self mapper, so i can set my AFR's and do some logging and apply the changes.
however i dont have a dyno and would like some kind of guidance for a starting point so as to not waste heaps of time trying to get best results.
i have slip on pipe (with link pipe) and performance air filter. thats it.

i use 95RON fuel

whats best AFR's to use as a starting point? even if its different across the rev range (lower down revs for more torque and higher up in revs for more horse power) ?

thanks
 

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PM me your email address and I will send you a excel spreadsheet showing you the AFR's for the correct rpm and throttle positions.

This is what I used (but it was on a PCV) and it worked great - remember we are high above sea level so not everyone's AFR's work the same.

I take it you know how to "Start - Stop - Retrieve - Apply" the trim values?
 

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This is what I used (but it was on a PCV) and it worked great - remember we are high above sea level so not everyone's AFR's work the same.
What does that have to do with it??? AFR stays the same regardless of altitude. It's a ratio of fuel to the given amount of air. If the air pressure drops in altitude, the corresponding fuel gets pulled back to compensate. But the RATIO of fuel to air stays the same from sea level to outer space. Altitude is irrelevant when talking about AFR, and the bike's air pressure sensor compensates for the drop in pressure due to the altitude.
 

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What does that have to do with it??? AFR stays the same regardless of altitude. It's a ratio of fuel to the given amount of air. If the air pressure drops in altitude, the corresponding fuel gets pulled back to compensate. But the RATIO of fuel to air stays the same from sea level to outer space. Altitude is irrelevant when talking about AFR, and the bike's air pressure sensor compensates for the drop in pressure due to the altitude.
Pulled back where and how - if your PCV or Bazzaz tells the bike to give X amount of fuel at that % of Throttle and RPM - how can the fueling amount be pulled back?

Look, not fighting and I am sure as hell not a pro at all - that's just the way I understand how it works . . . . . . maybe even I will learn something here!
 

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Discussion Starter #6
PM me your email address and I will send you a excel spreadsheet showing you the AFR's for the correct rpm and throttle positions.

This is what I used (but it was on a PCV) and it worked great - remember we are high above sea level so not everyone's AFR's work the same.

I take it you know how to "Start - Stop - Retrieve - Apply" the trim values?
thank you - PM sent with email addy
 

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Pulled back where and how - if your PCV or Bazzaz tells the bike to give X amount of fuel at that % of Throttle and RPM - how can the fueling amount be pulled back?

Look, not fighting and I am sure as hell not a pro at all - that's just the way I understand how it works . . . . . . maybe even I will learn something here!
The PCV is a piggyback box. It modifies the ECU signal. The ECU commands the injectors to turn on/off a given amount of time. The PCV takes that signal from the ECU, modifies it according to your own map, then sends the signal out to the injectors. So the ECU is the one that does the compensating by scaling back the fueling based on altitude and air pressure. It's the only way the system can work. Otherwise, you wouldn't be able to drive up a mountain without requiring fueling changes along the way.

This is also why you cannot use a PCV to tune out the on/off throttle cut. Because if the ECU commands the injectors to turn off when the throttle is off, using the PCV to add 10000% fuel in that range still won't get you anywhere. 100000% of zero is still zero.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
The way i understand is like this:

The AFR is based on mass-to-mass, and as such that is what your bike measures as inputs. At higher altitudes the mass flow meter will just measure lower mass of air and still fuel accordingly.
 

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The way i understand is like this:

The AFR is based on mass-to-mass, and as such that is what your bike measures as inputs. At higher altitudes the mass flow meter will just measure lower mass of air and still fuel accordingly.
That's essentially correct. The ECU is what is controlling the fueling based on the stock map and different sensors around the bike. It is the ECU that sets up and tries to maintain the target AFR based on all of these different inputs. The problem is, the stock target AFR is more for emissions than optimal running.

Now, throw on a PCV or Bazzaz that modifies the fueling to get to a new target AFR to get back the power lost in the stock ECU mapping and all is well. But it is ultimately the ECU that is controlling the overall fueling and compensating. Again, the AFR stays the same regardless of altitude. The power output will obviously drop due to less air and fuel at altitude, but the ratio of fuel-to-air is the same, there's just less of both.
 

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That's essentially correct. The ECU is what is controlling the fueling based on the stock map and different sensors around the bike. It is the ECU that sets up and tries to maintain the target AFR based on all of these different inputs. The problem is, the stock target AFR is more for emissions than optimal running.
The only problem I have with that is that a Stock ECU is not a closed loop system from factory, it doesn't know what the real Air Fuel Ratio is now in the REAL World and in the first place the Piggy back system like a PCV and Autotune will adjust beyond stock ECU maps and algorithms...it does intercepts the ECU signals on-off times to the injectors and 1ms later adjust for longer or shorter on-off times for A/F. So I guess what I am saying is I agree with you but think the Piggy back Trumps at that point once it intercepts the signal to the injectors of course based off stock ECU internal maps and sensors of course....just putting another perspective out there. :wink:

bloo
 

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The only problem I have with that is that a Stock ECU is not a closed loop system from factory, it doesn't know what the real Air Fuel Ratio is now in the REAL World and in the first place the Piggy back system like a PCV and Autotune will adjust beyond stock ECU maps and algorithms...it does intercepts the ECU signals on-off times to the injectors and 1ms later adjust for longer or shorter on-off times for A/F. So I guess what I am saying is I agree with you but think the Piggy back Trumps at that point once it intercepts the signal to the injectors of course based off stock ECU internal maps and sensors of course....just putting another perspective out there. :wink:

bloo
Yup, you're right on that. The US bikes are open-loop systems while the Euro ones are closed-loop with the sensor in the pipe. But, even on an open-loop system, the ECU still adjusts the long-term fuel trim values according to the input values from the various sensors. It just doesn't have the tighter control based on feedback of the AFR in real-time. So the adjustments made to the fueling are "ideal" or "theoretical" in nature based off just the input. The closed-loop setup will always get a more precise adjustment because of the feedback.

But the auto-tune system isn't a true closed-loop system and doesn't adjust in real-time. The auto-tune setup monitors the fueling while riding and recommends map changes based on reaching a target AFR. But you have to apply the auto-tune changes to the basic fuel mapping in the PCV after the system analyzes everything. The PCV only works off of 1 single static fuel map while in operation. The auto-tune cannot adjust the fuel trims on-the-fly in the way you think it does. You tune, then apply, then tune, then apply, then tune, then apply...eventually getting to the point where the changes recommended are minimal. But if you never apply the changes, it's just like using a regular PCV without the auto-tune connected. And this a limitation of the piggy-back modules currently.

In cars, the O2 sensor is constantly adjusting the long-term fuel trim values based on feedback from the exhaust. The short-term fuel trims are not though. And the car's system will switch back and forth from closed to open loop depending on where the throttle position is (i.e- closed, partially open, wide-open, etc). That is the advantage of using a closed-loop system in the ECU.
 

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Does this system use an Adaptive Fuel Value? Or what some would call Adaptive Fuel Trim?
I'm not sure what you're referring to. There's no valve. But if you mean like the car systems that "learn" how you like to drive and adapt, no. It is what it is.
 

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But the auto-tune system isn't a true closed-loop system and doesn't adjust in real-time. The auto-tune setup monitors the fueling while riding and recommends map changes based on reaching a target AFR. But you have to apply the auto-tune changes to the basic fuel mapping in the PCV after the system analyzes everything.
I think the General consenses now in the thread I started states otherwise that the Autotune DOES adjust in real time or am I missing something in your statement? :dontknow:

http://www.zx-10r.net/forum/showthread.php?p=3660793#post3660793

Bloo
 

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I think the General consenses now in the thread I started states otherwise that the Autotune DOES adjust in real time or am I missing something in your statement? :dontknow:

http://www.zx-10r.net/forum/showthread.php?p=3660793#post3660793

Bloo
In my experience, it does indeed adjust in real time so far as you let it. You specify a window it can adjust in (min/max trims, time after start up, etc). I forgot that I left my AT enabled years ago, and when I started having a gradual fuel pump failure it tried like hell to trim fuel back in.... goddamn thing would barely run after I fixed the pump. :)
 

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In my experience, it does indeed adjust in real time so far as you let it. You specify a window it can adjust in (min/max trims, time after start up, etc). I forgot that I left my AT enabled years ago, and when I started having a gradual fuel pump failure it tried like hell to trim fuel back in.... goddamn thing would barely run after I fixed the pump. :)
lol.....:eek:ccasion1

Another member on my other thread had great advice to keep adjusting the min/max as you get closer to the liking of how the bike runs so hoping to get to that state soon


bloo
 

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I think the General consenses now in the thread I started states otherwise that the Autotune DOES adjust in real time or am I missing something in your statement? :dontknow:

http://www.zx-10r.net/forum/showthread.php?p=3660793#post3660793

Bloo
In my experience, it does indeed adjust in real time so far as you let it. You specify a window it can adjust in (min/max trims, time after start up, etc). I forgot that I left my AT enabled years ago, and when I started having a gradual fuel pump failure it tried like hell to trim fuel back in.... goddamn thing would barely run after I fixed the pump. :)
Well, according to Dynojet's video on how to use the auto-tune feature, the fuel trims must be accepted into the base fuel map.

 

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When you accept the "trims" they become a permanent change to the map, but the "trim' values are applied to the base fuel map all the time. By keeping a small window on the short term trim values you prevent the system from making drastic/unwanted changes on the fuel map. :) It's not truly a closed-loop system, but it's quite close.
 
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