Kawasaki ZX-10R Forum banner

1 - 10 of 10 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
913 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
Just wondering if it's worth changing the stock headers on a GEN 4?? with the M4 Shorty I'm getting it removes the cat. How are the stock headers?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
174 Posts
From what I've read and heard the stock headers are pretty good. They're TI.

It comes down to how much you want to spend for gains. Most full systems are $1500+ and the gain above a slip on with cat eliminated might be 3hp with a tune.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
35 Posts
The stock headers are Titanium, so if you replace the cat with a Titanium link pipe you have a full system. Stock headers are very good, depending on how much you are willing to spend.. You could change to aftermarket headers, but I could think of many other ways of spending that kind of money on before adding new headers. It's up to you in the end.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,805 Posts
The stock headers are Titanium, so if you replace the cat with a Titanium link pipe you have a full system. Stock headers are very good, depending on how much you are willing to spend.. You could change to aftermarket headers, but I could think of many other ways of spending that kind of money on before adding new headers. It's up to you in the end.
ABSOLUTELY... 1000% not true. So sick of this train of thought.

1) Titanium doesn't mean shit other than weight savings.
2) The stock headers flow well, yes, but that doesn't mean they cannot be improved upon.
3) Decat + slip on + stock header =//= full system... especially after tuning
4) Full system has had everything from the primary and secondaries changed in terms of diameter, length, etc. Totally different exhaust setup than the stock header.

Differences between the stock header and the full Graves ti:
graves.jpg

Differences in power? Common thought is that it won't gain much up top in comparison and this is where the whole B.S. of them not being worth it comes in to play.
There is power up top to be had... especially after tuning both fuel and timing. There is even more power up there (and across the entire rev range) after the head has been cleaned up.
Stock 2011 ZX10 no TC VS Graves Full System Torque no TC copy.jpg
Stock 2011 ZX10 no TC VS Graves Full System no TC Power copy.jpg
Screenshot 2015-07-03 23.15.29.jpg
3934_GRH_Kawasaki_ZX-10R_2011.jpg

Personal opinion? I could've gone with a full system when I first bought the bike back in May 2011. Didn't and messed around with different exhaust set ups (stock, stock canister plus link pipe, Taylormade, M4 GP) before finally switching out for a full Graves ti. Wish I would've done it sooner... so much more power in the low-mid range. When the bike is tuned (and tuned CORRECTLY) the difference is staggering. If full systems weren't worth it, then companies wouldn't just put the time, R&D and money into doing it, just to develop a full exhaust for the shits and gigs of it...

If you have the money to do it and want to do it... do it. Don't fuck around with different exhausts. The full exhaust will serve you better on down the road and will set you up even better once you max out the bike with bolts ons and have to go inside the motor to look for more power.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
35 Posts
ABSOLUTELY... 1000% not true. So sick of this train of thought.

1) Titanium doesn't mean shit other than weight savings.
2) The stock headers flow well, yes, but that doesn't mean they cannot be improved upon.
3) Decat + slip on + stock header =//= full system... especially after tuning
4) Full system has had everything from the primary and secondaries changed in terms of diameter, length, etc. Totally different exhaust setup than the stock header.

I should probably have said "full" Titanium system? I wasn't at all implying that you would now have a "full aftermarket exhaust system". I also did not say that the stock headers cannot be improved. Titanium does save weight, and looks nice too.
As far as this train of thought goes, I am assuming that this isn't the first time you have heard this and that many other people have the same view / thoughts?

Kawasaki has put a lot of effort into designing the Gen4 and the exhaust system is one of the many things that most were really impressed with.

The catalytic converter on the stock exhaust system causes the most restricting, so the first step to better performance would be to replace that. The more air you allow to leave the more air you are able to take in?

I am not able to post attachments yet, but if you visit Revzilla you can compare that exact Akrapovic graph to the slip-on/link pipe option and decide for yourself whether the gains are that phenomenal.

Price on the Akrapovic full system: $ 2380
Price on the slip-on, link pipe: $ 989

If you have the money, and you would like to squeeze every last BHP out of the bike then you should go for it. But as far as my common sense goes I would rather spend that 1000 on other "bolt on accessories".
That's probably why most people are sticking to the stock headers.

I will post some pics on my profile of my "full TITANIUM system" (Akrapovic slip-on + link pipe)
It looks pretty good and there is a big difference since I removed the catalytic convertor. Not nearly as great as the Graves system, you can see just by looking at it that its way better, but its a start.

This is not at all an attack on Anthony's post, I'm merely defending mine. His knowledge about motorcycles and tuning is by far greater and I would personally take his advice on anything motorcycle related.

There is a difference between facts and opinion, but in the end you need both to make up your mind.

Like I said before, in the end its up to you.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,164 Posts
Gaining 6-8hp or more in the midrange on this bike is worth the money, yes even for street riders. Are you going to notice the extra 3hp up top? Doubtful, but you'll notice an increase in midrange because that's where your bike spends most of its time. Also the graves full SS system isn't much more than the fancy ass slipons most people are buying. I do love my akro system.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,805 Posts
I am assuming that this isn't the first time you have heard this and that many other people have the same view / thoughts?
First off, wasn't attacking you either, just trying to put this whole incorrect path of thinking to rest.

You wouldn't believe how many times I hear it... and it always comes down to "oh the stock headers are already made out of titanium".

Doesn't mean squat; a poorly designed system made from titanium will not perform as well as a well designed stainless system. A lot of people don't/can't wrap their heads around that. All they see is titanium and think that's the be all and end all.

Ask anyone who has rode this bike with a slip on and then moved to the full system which bike is/was faster. Which power characteristics they'd rather have and I'm willing to wager money on it that people will say the full system bike.

That low-mid range grunt doesn't translate to just being able to pull out of corners faster (although it does considerably help). But that extra power translates to faster acceleration as well. That little bit extra down low helps the bike hit its top end stride sooner. Run a decat slip on bike that is tuned on the dyno and then swap out the full exhaust, tune it and run it again. Overlay the best runs from each and change out the RPMs to speed and see which one reaches a top speed faster. It's going to be the full system.

Just because both bikes may make within a few HP in the top end/peak numbers doesn't mean that all the extra gained in the low-mid with the full system is negated and means nothing. It isn't simply wiped out or balanced out because top end numbers are roughly similar. Things don't work like that. A lot of people just look at peak numbers and that's the sole judgment of a bike's performance. And that's kind of where this whole stigma comes in; a vast majority of people see roughly the same performance in peak numbers and then look at the cost between the two and do their justification like that and they in turn keep on passing down that info over and over and it spreads and it's all disinformation. The bikes will make similar peak power yes, but the full system gets to that peak power first.

And I'm just speaking from personal experience here, working on these bikes both with slip ons and full exhausts. This also includes my experience with my machines which includes a daily street/track bike that had various slip ons for two years and now a full exhaust for two years as well as a track only build where I went straight to a full exhaust after my experiences with my daily... But I would never, ever go back to a slip on even if I could sell my full exhaust for full retail value and have the slip on of my choice for free. No way.

After tuning the bike with the full exhaust and feeling the difference every time I twist that throttle and feel that low end grunt pull, I always think to myself I was an idiot for not going the full exhaust route from the beginning. Being able to accelerate out from nearly any gear in city traffic without having to downshift, not constantly having to change gears while just cruising for fun to keep the bike where it has power, not having to wind it out to get it up to speed... the benefits go beyond power and acceleration and are not noticed solely on the track... they do translate to everyday riding as well.

Again, personal experience and opinion here. I don't have some some form of agreement with Akra, Graves and Arrow for every full exhaust they sell on a ZX-10R I get 25 cents or anything like that. Just trying to set the record straight; people view decat slip ons and full systems as essentially the same, but they aren't.

Ultimately it comes down to the end user, their budget and goals. Me, my budget and my goals probably aren't your typical user either... so all I can do is try and educate on the differences because I have worked with both and I have owned both and know which I prefer...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,068 Posts
ABSOLUTELY... 1000% not true. So sick of this train of thought.

1) Titanium doesn't mean shit other than weight savings.
2) The stock headers flow well, yes, but that doesn't mean they cannot be improved upon.
3) Decat + slip on + stock header =//= full system... especially after tuning
4) Full system has had everything from the primary and secondaries changed in terms of diameter, length, etc. Totally different exhaust setup than the stock header.

Differences between the stock header and the full Graves ti:
View attachment 331690

Differences in power? Common thought is that it won't gain much up top in comparison and this is where the whole B.S. of them not being worth it comes in to play.
There is power up top to be had... especially after tuning both fuel and timing. There is even more power up there (and across the entire rev range) after the head has been cleaned up.
View attachment 331698
View attachment 331706
View attachment 331722
View attachment 331714

Personal opinion? I could've gone with a full system when I first bought the bike back in May 2011. Didn't and messed around with different exhaust set ups (stock, stock canister plus link pipe, Taylormade, M4 GP) before finally switching out for a full Graves ti. Wish I would've done it sooner... so much more power in the low-mid range. When the bike is tuned (and tuned CORRECTLY) the difference is staggering. If full systems weren't worth it, then companies wouldn't just put the time, R&D and money into doing it, just to develop a full exhaust for the shits and gigs of it...

If you have the money to do it and want to do it... do it. Don't fuck around with different exhausts. The full exhaust will serve you better on down the road and will set you up even better once you max out the bike with bolts ons and have to go inside the motor to look for more power.
That Akrapovic chart you posted is Akras full system versus full stock system.

Got any dyno charts of Akras full system versus the stock headers, link pipe and slip on?
 
1 - 10 of 10 Posts
Top