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it should be just fine, its a subtle move and its jetted plenty rich
 
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Discussion Starter · #42 ·
Got a cheap impact driver in the mail today. I was able to remove the screws and remove the rest of the transmission. Took a lot more whacking with the mallet than I had expected. I'll be replacing those POS screws with better ones.
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All 3 shiftforks seem straight and the thickness of the ears are in spec with no particular signs of wear or abuse. The input shaft gears also seem pretty minty.
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I guess my issue lies in the gears of the output shaft.
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Yeah cams as basassjake says 1-3 are drop in, G3 cams can be fitted without a tune, but a tune would be better. The 0.5 gasket will be OK as long as the piston to wall is in specification, it should be measured really but if you check the squish is clear 0.6 you will be good. I generally go for the cometic 0.45mm gasket with no issues and a head skim 0f 0.4mm works very well. The transmission issue you have been having is probably down to shimming. The KIT parts are no longer available for that Gen, but Kawa have a few shim size options on the G3 fiche which fit your transmission with no issues.
 

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Discussion Starter · #45 ·
Yeah cams as basassjake says 1-3 are drop in, G3 cams can be fitted without a tune, but a tune would be better. The 0.5 gasket will be OK as long as the piston to wall is in specification, it should be measured really but if you check the squish is clear 0.6 you will be good. I generally go for the cometic 0.45mm gasket with no issues and a head skim 0f 0.4mm works very well. The transmission issue you have been having is probably down to shimming. The KIT parts are no longer available for that Gen, but Kawa have a few shim size options on the G3 fiche which fit your transmission with no issues.
Forgive my ignorance but does skimming involve machining a thin portion off the head? In that case I'm not looking for that kind of work at the time: what I'm looking for is to fix my tranny and since I have the engine apart and need to replace the headgasket and cams which are out of spec anyways I'm looking for upgrades that are replacements. Not looking to go out of my way to put money into the engine as budget is tight at the moment sadly. I can get 3 headgasket options: 0,5mm by Athena, 0,4mm by Athena, 0,45mm by Cometic (most expensive, hardest to source in Italy).

Thank you for the input on the tranny: since I have to go through the dealer to get the spares anyways I'll have the kawi dealer look at the tranny pieces I've taken off the engine in order to order the right parts. Thanks to your input and the manual I now know he'd be trying to rip me off if he wants me to waste cash on parts that are perfectly good like shift forks, drum or input gears. I'll ask him to inspect the shims and order those.
 

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From memory your looking at reduce the spacing between the Dogs down to between 0.3 - 0.4mm, by increasing the sizes of shims.IIRC the shims vary from 0.7-1.6mm. Yes i forget Athena are italian and 0.5mm will make a noticable difference to the squish.
 

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Discussion Starter · #47 ·
Intake valves were covered in carbon. I've cleaned them up and I want to replace the valve stem oil seals to make sure there's no oil leaking through. How do I remove the old valve seals? Can i pull them out from the top with pliers or from the bottom? Perhaps I should use a hammer instead of pliers? Also how do i install the new valve stem oil seals. I couldn't find mention of it in the manual.
 

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There "as usual" is special tools for valve seal removal and fitting. But long nose pliers are sufficient to remove the old seals (if your not going to use them again that is) installing is best with a specific tool as stops the seal part ( rubber) becoming deformed or damaged. I have gotten away fitting them with nothing but bare hands, I consider myself lucky though. Either way copious amounts if oil or engine eaze helps.
 

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Discussion Starter · #50 ·
Ffs i ordered athena's last night aswell as a .5mm hg🤦‍♂️ are they that bad?
A set of 16 oil seals cost 35€. OEM they are around 9-10€ each iirc.
 

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Ffs i ordered athena's last night aswell as a .5mm hg🤦‍♂️ are they that bad?
A set of 16 oil seals cost 35€. OEM they are around 9-10€ each iirc.
I don't think the green seals are made by Athena, I'm not sure who makes those, there was a thread on here somewhere. The 0.5mm head gasket "Should" be OK. Did you measure the piston to wall, it's only if you get bad rock-up ( well out of specification)your gonna be in danger.
 

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Discussion Starter · #52 ·
I guess we'll take a look at them when they get here. I have not taken a measurement of the piston to valve clearance yet. Not sure how to go about it: I've read online that you need to put a piece of clay on top of the piston and reassemble and then measure the thickness of the piece of clay. Is there a more simple way, perhaps involving a thickness feeler gauge?
 

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Piston to valve, is different too piston to wall, (space between piston and cylinder) the larger the space then the more the piston rocks on the little end. You need bore gauges and a micrometer subtract the latter from the former that gives you the gap, if it's too large you could get piston hitting the head at TDC when the piston Rocks up. The squish measurement that is crucial too performance is effected by rock up the most. Some people have been successful in measuring the rock up by the clay method, but when I have tried that it always pushes the piston back to level before compressing the clay giving me a false reading. The minimum squish given of 0.6mm for your motor allows for maximum tolerance on your piston to wall measurement. I use solder rather than clay for measuring squish.
 

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Discussion Starter · #54 ·
Sounds like it's more trouble than it's worth. I wanted to go with a thin hg because I have to replace mine anyways since I've taken the head off and a thin hg costs the same as an OEM .65 hg.

I'm not looking to spend money on more tools. If the measurement of the squish with the soldering wire method alone is not enough to know if the thin hg is doable i think I should skip it and go stock .65mm
 

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Discussion Starter · #55 ·
Took me the entire evening but I'm finally done: i cleaned up the piston tops quite well. There was a lot of buildup and i wanted to remove it to get a proper squish measurement. Then i put the old used .65mm hg on and i installed the head with the specified torque sequence an finally had all the bolts at 55ish nM of torque.

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I turned the crankshaft a full round and then proceeded to remove the head to inspect the pieces of soldering wire i had put on top of the pistons.
To my surprise none of the pieces of solder got squished and the wire has a diameter of 1.85mm!!
This is nuts. You mentioned the minimum squish should be 0.6mm and I'm at 3x that amount. Either I'm doing something terribly wrong with my measurinf process or there's so much gap in there it's not even funny.

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Discussion Starter · #56 ·
I had a few drinks but couldn't stop thinking what I was doing wrong. I got mad/frustrated so i got back in the garage and this time i trimmed the ends of the soldering wire pieces with a box cutter to get an uncompressed, clean cut and rested the clean end against the wall of the cylinder. Basically i moved all the pieces of wire closer to the cylinder so that they would touch the bore. Cursing and swearing i repeated the measuring process. When I removed the head i found pretty much the same result. I could only notice a single piece of wire that had a squish mark and it measured 1.65mm in diameter.

I'm puzzled. Could this have anything to do with torque? I remember when I first removed the head it was an absolute bitch to untorque the bolts. No way on earth they were 59nM, probably closer to 90 to 110 range. I calibrate my torque wrench every few months and it should be accurate with an error of say 4-5 nM I'd say.

The manual says the M10 head bolts should be torqued down to 57 iirc. No way on earth it was that low when I first removed the head.

Or perhaps it has something to do with the used head gasket?
 

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The squish area is on the outer edge of the piston, if you place the solder so it is nearly touching the cylinder you will get a true reading.
 

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Sorry I couldn't give a fuller reply earlier, break away torque always feels tighter, i dont know if the head has been off before or not, there "will" be loctight If 100% virgin. The threads on these blocks are prone to failure so I don't believe they could have been drastically over torqued. You need to measure the thickness of the gasket removed as it may not be stock. The 0.6mm squish is the minimum you can go to if all else is in specification but you should back that up by measuring the squish ( as you are doing ).
 

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Discussion Starter · #59 ·
I'm pretty sure the head has never been taken off. In my 2nd attempt i measured with the piece of solder touching the wall and min measurement I got was 1.65mm
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The head gasket measures .65mm
This can't be right because it would mean that if you could hipotetically install the head without the headgasket i still would have 1mm squish to play with. Wouldn't have such a wide gap result in low compression and performance?

This is my first bike so I can't compare her to any other bike but I'd say that before taking the engine the engine apart, she was running strong. She made 156 whp when Dyno tuned so I'd say she's normal.
 

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That's OK mate, stock gasket 0.65mm typically on a build the head would be skimmed around 0.4mm but 06-7mm is achievable but sometimes counter productive depending on cams and timing. But when skimming the head say 4mm your actually moving the 3 & 9 O'clock pinch points inwards on the piston which reduces the squish by a mire than 0.4mm. It's fairly obvious that the head hasn't been skimmed. If you were going 0.45mm gasket and -4mm on the deck (skim) you wouldn't be lowering the squish by 0.2mm + 0.4mm = 0.6mm it would be more like removing 0.8-0.9mm because of the piston crown.
 
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