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No, using non JIS bits on JIS screws is getting by. It's likely using American wrenches on metric fittings. On some sizes, you get lucky and the fit fairly well. Or, do you just say screw iit and grab the adjustable wrench for everything?

If it cost him 200.00 for the correct bits, then sure, it might be time to get by, but when the correct bits cost very little, or less, why not use them?

It's also nice when you have proper fitting bits and don't have to start smacking cast aluminum cases with a hammer.

The impact screwdrivers have their place. That place is usually after someone has damaged the screw with a Phillips bit.
The particular screws he is trying to remove have been locked in with red loctite in the crankcase for the past 17 years and are notoriously difficult to remove, i have JIS screw drivers and regardless of how good the fit is you cant get them to budge by far the easiest straight forward way is to use an impact driver. An impact driver with a JIS bit would be best but not necessary, the Philips bit gives enough to break it free.
 

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Discussion Starter · #22 ·
Thanks for the inputs. Didn't even know JIS was a thing. I'll see if I can get a hold of a few JIS tips if Philips doesn't do it. I currently have a PH4 with a 1/2" wrench attachment on it's way that i bought online. I'm confident I'll be able to produce enough torque with the wrench that the bolt will come off. If i see the heads are starting get too damaged I'll try the JIS+impact driver route but ATM that's a 100€ purchase I'm trying to avoid since I don't have many uses for JIS tips and an impact driver outside of this case.
 

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Impact driver such as silverline Is around 20'25 dollars including half a dozen bits. I mean the type you smack with a hammer.
 

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Discussion Starter · #24 ·
I wish we had these prices over here in Italy. Here the base price for that tool is 60€ for a no brand chinese one lol. Everything is quite pricey. I'll definitely buy it if the wrench idea doesn't work. I'm in no hurry anyways: sadly the dealer doesn't open until the 10th if January so i won't be able to place an order for new parts till then. The company i sent my frame to for welding also didn't do the job before the holidays so i won't have the frame to start putting the bike together either. I guess these holidays I'll be stuck doing little jobs here and there on the bodywork and whatnot and I'll have to put the engine back together and reassemble the bike when these buggers get back to work in mid January. 🤦🏼‍♂️

Are you planning to do any bike related jobs during the holidays?
 

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I just found this one on e/bay (Italia) it is the lowest price on there
And yes

You already have the cases split with the pistons and rods removed when you come to use this, on the flat bench with towel or similar to stop the case faces getting scratched either use wood behind the case to wall or whatever so when you give the impact wrench a whack the case doesn't move. Or my preference is to stand the case up on its side using wood under the output shaft side to ensure its level so you can give it a whack.
And yes i have a VFR800 in for top end refresh and a ZX6 for transmission and head work.
 

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Discussion Starter · #26 ·
Sweet thanks. I expected impact drivers to look like bulky electric impact guns for some reason lol.
I have the engine parts on a wooden workbench laid on a piece of nylon so I'm sure they will be fine.

The zx6 seems to be in need of a similar refresh as the one I'm currently putting my gen 1 through except I've just replaced the retainers and done the valve clearance on the top end instead of something more extensive. 8 out of 16 clearances where tight (1 intake at 0.15mm, 7 exhaust at 0.15mm) 7000km only after i had the kawi dealer do valve adjustment last year. Makes me wonder if they had done the job at all. This might be the reason why my engine was making a ticking sound afterall.
 

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I know it had the thread lock. That's even more reason to use the proper JIS bit.

The best way to remove them is by heating it with a pencil tip soldering iron. Once you get the thread lock warm, it doesn't lock anymore, and the bolt will back out...no hammer necessary. This method also avoids damaging the threads.

For sure you go to the impact screwdriver, after every proper method has failed.....but it shouldn't be the first .
 

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I know it had the thread lock. That's even more reason to use the proper JIS bit.

The best way to remove them is by heating it with a pencil tip soldering iron. Once you get the thread lock warm, it doesn't lock anymore, and the bolt will back out...no hammer necessary. This method also avoids damaging the threads.

For sure you go to the impact screwdriver, after every proper method has failed.....but it shouldn't be the first .
You can't get enough localised heat to it for RED loctite period, you can't get heat in from behind it and you can't damage the threads in the case the screw is countersunk. There are times and places for sending off loctite, loctite red won't go off with the moderate temperature of a soldering iron. You can't get enough torque on the head to break it away with conventional methods. People have sheared the head of the screw and had to drill out the remains of the screw and re-tap before now. In this case it is a fouls folly to not go to the impact driver first. We are all time served and we all know the discipline, but the experience sometimes shared on this forum should be taken to heart.
 

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You have everything apart...I'd definitely replace all the shift forks (not much money and good insurance) and I'd send out the trans to have all gears undercut. Once again, good insurance and you'll probably never miss another shift. Liter bikes are very tough on 2nd and 3rd gear if you race it. Lots of horsepower can do a job on those dogs if you miss a shift. And have the trans guy remove the bearings for the neutral gear finder. That way you can do burnouts in 2nd. I did all this to mine and the trans shifts solid and it's still easy to find neutral at a stop.
 
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Discussion Starter · #30 ·
I'm ve
You can't get enough localised heat to it for RED loctite period, you can't get heat in from behind it and you can't damage the threads in the case the screw is countersunk. There are times and places for sending off loctite, loctite red won't go off with the moderate temperature of a soldering iron. You can't get enough torque on the head to break it away with conventional methods. People have sheared the head of the screw and had to drill out the remains of the screw and re-tap before now. In this case it is a fouls folly to not go to the impact driver first. We are all time served and we all know the discipline, but the experience sometimes shared on this forum should be taken to heart.
I take your advice seriously, make no mistake. I'm just trying to save a bit of money since I've spent a few grands already during the 1 year and 1/2 of ownership on replacement parts, tools and mandatory upgrades (ie:front brakes) on a 17 years old bike. The more time i spent on the bike, the more i realized she was neglected and needed money and work put into her. I got a lemon and I've actually spent more time looking for parts and working on her as an absolute novice, then I've spent riding her. It has been a pain in the arse between diagnosing and fixing leaking water pump, corroded cooling system parts, cracked frame, valve retainers, faulty gear sensor, failing fuel pump, faling coil plugs toast transmissions and ordinary maintance and so forth. It has definitely been a learning experience and it's not cheap at all to make it all happen with an average Italian salary, and I'm not complaining, just trying to be economically responsable. I've got the philips head coming in the mail in a few days. I won't force the screw head to the point of failure, but I'll try this route before investing more money into more tools: I've already removed bolts installed with red loctite in the engine with the wrench for example in the clutch basket but if the wrench won't do it, I'll gadly buy the impact driver before I do any damage. It's just me being stubborn on trying to save some cash, not disregarding advice. I'm really thankful for your input just wanted to make that clear.
 

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Discussion Starter · #31 · (Edited)
For the very same reason i made my own tools to disassemble the frame for less than 10€ instead of paying 80-90€ for the ufficial kawi tools. I'm a broke bastard trying to cut some corners, but I'm well aware that if my plans don't work, i know the tools you suggested to me will work for sure, so i appreciate your advice: you tell me how to do things by the book and I'm grateful for it. I'll keep you posted on my progress, things are just a couple of bolts away from completion 😜

Next step will be to order replacement parts and put everything back together.
Drinkware Wood Drink Wood stain Hardwood
 

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Discussion Starter · #32 ·
The philips bit is taking forever to get here so in the meantime I've also ordered a cheap impact driver. While I'm waiting I've checked the camshafts with a caliper and noticed that the measuraments are off.
The intake measures a minimum of 34,8mm to a max of 35mm.
The exhaust measures a minumum of 34,4mm to a max of 34,5mm.
Font Rectangle Parallel Slope Circle


I suppose I've got to replace both shafts. Bike was making 156whp at 35k kilometers. Would I be looking at more power if the cams were in spec? What are some good options maybe from other gens? Looking to keep it cheap.
 

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Those screws we are talking about are 6mm, I believe. They were put in with a JIS type screwdriver, so you know the torque level wasn't ever high or they would have used a bolt.

We will assume that the thread lock Kawasaki used was high temp. Just because it's red, doesn't mean it's high temp.

A good,hand held 80w soldiering iron will heat to just below 900 degrees, f, with a new tip. That won't be enough for a 4 or 6mm screw? Amazon sells a 100w iron for under 25.00. That's good for 1000 degrees. Sure, a 5.00 iron won't have the power.

The other issue is thread damage. Just because you've beat the loctite enough to break it loose, it's still all over the threads. This can cause thread damage as it's backing out. Especially if you are working with cast aluminum.

Really, avoid the hammer...even if it costs 30.00 to do so.
 

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08-10 intake is the economy upgrade.......a race cam if you can find one.
 

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Discussion Starter · #35 ·
08-10 intake is the economy upgrade.......a race cam if you can find one.
Since both are out of spec would both In and Ex from 3rd gen be a direct swap?

What about 4th gen? I found a decent deal: i can get both camshafts for a better price than I'd be able to get 3rd gen ones for. Is 4th gen a direct swap?

Also, would i have to retune the bike? I'm assuming I'll have to redo the valve clearances, right?
 

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no, 4th gen wont fit, base circle is 1mm thicker then Gen1-3

Gen 1-3 are all direct swap. (aside from shimming for spec.)
 
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Discussion Starter · #38 ·
Would a .5mm head gasket be a worthy mod for the street? I can get stock .65mm or .5mm for the same price and since I have to order one I don't know which one to get. Would it make more power up top or down low? Also is it safe or there's a risk that the valves touch the pistons with .5mm?
 

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lots of room for the smaller gasket.......you might notice some peppiness.
 

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Discussion Starter · #40 ·
lots of room for the smaller gasket.......you might notice some peppiness.
Would I have to get a new tune and degree the cams if I went 3rd gen intake cam and .5mm head gasket? I'd like to keep things simple: just install the components and be done with it without too much thinkering.

This forum member gained 8hp on his gen 2 but lost a ton of power from 8500 to 10500. My understanding is this is the tradeoff and there's no way around it right?
 
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