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I purchased my brand new out of the crate 08' ZX-10R back in August and since then I have been increasingly interested in tuning the bike myself. I currently have an Area P slip-on, PC3, Ignition Module, Ivans TRE, and the Ivans tune to match. I currently do a lot of tuning on my DSM and have a lot of knowledge on it. These ECUs are a newer concept to me and I would like to get more information on it. Basically my questions are...

I see that these bikes have an Inlet Air Temperature sensor, Inlet Air Pressure sensor, and Atmospheric Pressure sensor. So basically these bikes are tuned using speed density.

Are they used through the entire RPM range and throttle position range? Does the bike ever cut over to a more static type of tune and/or ignore any of the three sensors?

A PC3 only gives you a map with x/y for throttle position and RPM... This reminds me when I used to use an S-AFC2 to tune my DSM. Is it safe to tune on a dyno and let the IAP sensor compensate for the higher air inlet on the street? Brings me back one of my questions above ("...cut over...").

On a PC3, does every increment of timing equate to a degree of timing? About how much would you expect an increment of fuel to equate to in A/F's?

What kind of pump gas (93) A/Fs are you aiming for while cruising? And for WOT/high load?

What kind of timing curve is common for pump gas (93) at WOT?


I know that was a lot, but I'm hoping a tuner could chime in and answer them. It would be greatly appreciated. :zx_green:
 

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Sounds like a question for Garth...
 

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Speed Freak
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Replied in bigger text :thumbsup:

I purchased my brand new out of the crate 08' ZX-10R back in August and since then I have been increasingly interested in tuning the bike myself. I currently have an Area P slip-on, PC3, Ignition Module, Ivans TRE, and the Ivans tune to match (these tunes are not so great). I currently do a lot of tuning on my DSM and have a lot of knowledge on it. These ECUs are a newer concept to me and I would like to get more information on it. Basically my questions are...

I see that these bikes have an Inlet Air Temperature sensor, Inlet Air Pressure sensor, and Atmospheric Pressure sensor. So basically these bikes are tuned using speed density.

Are they used through the entire RPM range and throttle position range? Does the bike ever cut over to a more static type of tune and/or ignore any of the three sensors?

From what I understand is you have your basic x/y maps on these bikes but the sensors are more like trims, they have their settings like with the air intake pressure sensor when you see .5psi or 1psi it will add some much % of fuel.

A PC3 only gives you a map with x/y for throttle position and RPM... This reminds me when I used to use an S-AFC2 to tune my DSM. Is it safe to tune on a dyno and let the IAP sensor compensate for the higher air inlet on the street? Brings me back one of my questions above ("...cut over...").

It somewhat is, yes you will be safe but data logging is your best bet, I have seen up to a .5 difference in air fuel on the dyno and on the bike at top speed back to back

On a PC3, does every increment of timing equate to a degree of timing? About how much would you expect an increment of fuel to equate to in A/F's?

yes every number (min/max 10 is supposed to be one degree although I have a hard time trusting the ignition module after my experiences...

What kind of pump gas (93) A/Fs are you aiming for while cruising? And for WOT/high load?

Shoot for 14-15:1 on cruising (2,5,10,20% throttle) and 12.8-13.2 at WOT and you want to let the air fuel taper down to those WOT ranges as you go. Some bikes like running extra lean cruising but it will let the bike run alot hotter so if it does you can richen it to the 14:1 area but I always shoot for 14.5 on my bikes and 12.9 WOT

What kind of timing curve is common for pump gas (93) at WOT?

Not to sure on the timing curve part no one really messes with the timing map except the guys who actually re-flash the ECU's I know they max out anywhere from 7-9k rpms with near 30-34* timing depending on bike and then taper off very slightly towards max rpm's

I know that was a lot, but I'm hoping a tuner could chime in and answer them. It would be greatly appreciated. :zx_green:
 

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Discussion Starter #4 (Edited)
Replied in bigger text :thumbsup:
I totally agree with you on tunes. There is no one-tune-fits-all in the tuning world. Either your tune is going to be very conservative (rich and low timing) or it is not going to be safe for everyone. I just felt safer using his tune to match the TRE keeping the ECU locked to one map. So far the tune has felt nice while crusing and under load (from what I can feel)...

With the sensors... are any of the sensors being ignored at WOT? Or is the ECU still running in a full speed density mode? What are the cutover criteria for a WOT condition like this (TPS points, RPM, etc...)?

Have you found any good way to simulate wind speed enough that A/Fs would remain the same on and off the dyno? Any special wind generation devices?

As for the timing map, I would think anyone making any changes on a PC ignition module would be messing with the timing curve, correct?
 

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Speed Freak
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I totally agree with you on tunes. There is no one-tune-fits-all in the tuning world. Either your tune is going to be very conservative (rich and low timing) or it is not going to be safe for everyone. I just felt safer using his tune to match the TRE keeping the ECU locked to one map. So far the tune has felt nice while crusing and under load (from what I can feel)...

With the sensors... are any of the sensors being ignored at WOT? Or is the ECU still running in a full speed density mode? What are the cutover criteria for a WOT condition like this (TPS points, RPM, etc...)?

Not a clue on that one, I dont know if it does that or not

Have you found any good way to simulate wind speed enough that A/Fs would remain the same on and off the dyno? Any special wind generation devices?

Not really, Ram air doesnt start building pressure in the airbox until 140mph or so, so unless you can find a fan that can pump that much it cant build much pressure

As for the timing map, I would think anyone making any changes on a PC ignition module would be messing with the timing curve, correct?

yeah you are correct, but ive always not really trusted those timing numbers, my old bike ran +10 and it ran the same with +2, +4 and so on. I sorta dont trust that, I'd much rather send the ECU out to be flashed and know exactly what timing maps I have in the bike ya know..... Now you can even set a pin on the ECU to switch maps to pull timing or do w/e you need it to do
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Speed Freak
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^^^ If you can afford a KIT ECU I'd say go for it unless you are close to someone who flashed the ECU's Guhl or Dynotronics.

Guhl is supposed to have a flashing cable out sometime soon but its not on the market yet.

I would for sure do away with piggy backs if I could get all the same features (quick shifter, ease of tuning, dual maps)
 

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Discussion Starter #8
^^^ If you can afford a KIT ECU I'd say go for it unless you are close to someone who flashed the ECU's Guhl or Dynotronics.

Guhl is supposed to have a flashing cable out sometime soon but its not on the market yet.

I would for sure do away with piggy backs if I could get all the same features (quick shifter, ease of tuning, dual maps)
So, Guhl and Dynotronics just flash ECUs or do they have a public flashing system?
 

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Speed Freak
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yeah they flash the ECU's you can mail the ECU into them to have it flashed but if you want a precise tune it would be best to close by unless you dont mind mailing your ECU's to them back and fourth until its perfect.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
yeah they flash the ECU's you can mail the ECU into them to have it flashed but if you want a precise tune it would be best to close by unless you dont mind mailing your ECU's to them back and fourth until its perfect.
So, there is no one who offers a setup to flash and adjust tables on your own like you would with a kit ecu?
 

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Speed Freak
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Well I believe there is some sort of conversion that takes your stock ECU and converts it to a race ECU and then you can flash it yourself but its just as expensive or even more expensive than buying a real KIT ECU.
 

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Speed Freak
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My built NA motor picked up 2-3 hp from 12-13500 with around 4-5 degrees advance. Using a race ECU.
Nice, I know my 2011 picked up 4hp up top but they pull alot of of the stock ECU's


Hey Dean goin to any of the maxton meets anytime soon?
 

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yeah they flash the ECU's you can mail the ECU into them to have it flashed but if you want a precise tune it would be best to close by unless you dont mind mailing your ECU's to them back and fourth until its perfect.
What if you tuned it on a power commander map and got it pretty darn perfect. Can they translate that into the flashed ECU?

I know the flashed ECUs don't have the ability for the end user to go in and make changes, but as part of the flash can they turn off the fuel cut off and timing retard and servo motor and stuff, or is that only available on the full race versions?
 

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Speed Freak
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What if you tuned it on a power commander map and got it pretty darn perfect. Can they translate that into the flashed ECU?

I know the flashed ECUs don't have the ability for the end user to go in and make changes, but as part of the flash can they turn off the fuel cut off and timing retard and servo motor and stuff, or is that only available on the full race versions?
I'm sure they can get it pretty close, I dont know what kind of tables they have if its % or what not but they im sure are able to translate it.

yeah they can change your fuel cuts for sure, as well as raise rev limiters and speed limiters :thumbsup:

I suggest Guhl :cool:
 

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Discussion Starter #16
I'm sure they can get it pretty close, I dont know what kind of tables they have if its % or what not but they im sure are able to translate it.

yeah they can change your fuel cuts for sure, as well as raise rev limiters and speed limiters :thumbsup:

I suggest Guhl :cool:
What is the speed limiter set to BTW?
 

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^^ They posted online it was a total of like near 900 bucks before their flash is only 400 or something but their race conversion was much more
 
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