E85 Safe or Unsafe?
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I hate that stuff. It's hygroscopic in nature and will hold and retain more water in it which can lead to deterioration.
It's good for adding some power on a modified motor if tuned to use it, but you have to flow more of it which requires different parts and components and will hurt your fuel mileage. Don't expect to add a tune for E85 into a power commander map and instantly gain 5 Hp. It doesn't work like that. It's better for the environment though!
It's good for adding some power on a modified motor if tuned to use it, but you have to flow more of it which requires different parts and components and will hurt your fuel mileage. Don't expect to add a tune for E85 into a power commander map and instantly gain 5 Hp. It doesn't work like that. It's better for the environment though!
Great info! And yeah I know you take away MPG for power... burns like what 40% more than pump :lol: Can the stock injectors even dish out that much additional fuel.
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I'll have to defer to people smarter than me for that answer. If my memory is correct based on what I've heard, the injectors can handle it but the fuel pump and pressure is the bigger concern. Don't quote me on that though!
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465 Posts
If you're point is to gain octane without the cost, I would ask why? That only makes sense on the road, if you track/race, the cost of high octane fuels is minimal by comparison.
More to the point about fuel system safety, ethanol leaves a varnish on the fuel components and requires a stainless steel system to keep this form happening. You'll also be needing to more fuel per atmospheres to create a proper AFR, so fuel consumption will be up.
For a street outlaw setup on say: a turbo bike/car, I think its perfect but for any track oriented vehicle it's not that easy to decide. Personally, I'll stick to U4.4 or VP110 for octane even if it cost me $15-20 more in fuel per trackday/race weekend.
I'm primarily looking into E85 for street use. I saw Schnitz has a replacement fuel pump safe w/ ethanol based fuels, but it sounds like I'll need more than just that? What else? I don't mind the fuel consumption (I know the cost savings are nil). An extra couple horsepower but a bit more toque would be nice for street "racing" or whatever :lol:
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167 Posts
I run e85 in my car, once the fuel system is up to snuff it’s not really much maintenance. Basically a big thing to watch out for, I run Stainless braided fuel line in my car, I switched from Q16 to E85 and it ate the rubber from the hose internally over time. I was finding black residue. I had to switch to PTFE line. I don’t know how difficult it would be to make those style of lines for our bikes.
The gains were awesome, more timing, and less detonation. Fuel consumption will definitely be up. My fuel pump was rated to around 2,000hp forced induction on gas, when I switched to E it went down to 1,500. I since went belt drive to have safety margin since it’s 1,400 to the wheel.
Maintenance wise just make sure to run the bike atleast 1-2 times a week, storing it for a while drain it or run it out and replace with gas. Sitting is the biggest enemy.
There is definitely gains to be had with it, but any fuel your going to have to tune for. But E85 is the poor man MR12, I will be getting an E85 map done on my bike once I figure out what all needs upgraded. There was a member on here who actually messed around with it and picked up awesome gains. Everyone opinion will vary, a lot will be going off hear say, in my personal experience it’s awesome and cheap.
The gains were awesome, more timing, and less detonation. Fuel consumption will definitely be up. My fuel pump was rated to around 2,000hp forced induction on gas, when I switched to E it went down to 1,500. I since went belt drive to have safety margin since it’s 1,400 to the wheel.
Maintenance wise just make sure to run the bike atleast 1-2 times a week, storing it for a while drain it or run it out and replace with gas. Sitting is the biggest enemy.
There is definitely gains to be had with it, but any fuel your going to have to tune for. But E85 is the poor man MR12, I will be getting an E85 map done on my bike once I figure out what all needs upgraded. There was a member on here who actually messed around with it and picked up awesome gains. Everyone opinion will vary, a lot will be going off hear say, in my personal experience it’s awesome and cheap.
Swapping out the lines doesn't seem like too much of a chore then I guess. Summit Racing has some stainless braided PTFE lines. The fittings are ABS I'm assuming (I'm not a plastics guy), which I'm seeing is safe. And I assume the fuel rails and other stuff are stainless which is also a safe material according to a chart I'm looking at. And then Schnitz has this $80 pump if you're running ethanol based fuel: https://store.schnitzracing.com/quantum-replacement-fuel-pump-kawasaki-zx10-08-18/
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I'm not trying to be a dick but E85 has very little in common with MR12. The only "performance gain" from running E85 is due to its high octane (105 if memory serves). MR12 actually has a lower octane by comparison (87 octane). The gain from E85 is 100% from running a more advanced ignition timing. MR12 is all about adding oxygen from the fuel. When tuning for a fuel like MR12 there is going to be an increase of about 10-15% in the fuel tables to offset the added oxygen brought in by the fuel, that's why MR12 works so well.
Running E85 might seem like a similar situation but it's really not. By adding to the octane count you can increase the spark advance but this will only get you so far, the engine still has a limit on how much oxygen it can pull in to mix with the fuel. Once you reach that limit, you have to start adding oxygen by other methods (forced induction, nitrous, oxygenated fuels).
My point here is that by doing such a conversion specifically to use high ethanol fuel, is hardly worth the cost in a bike. You'll see little performance in comparison to just having a secondary map switch for U4.4 or MR12.
How much is it worth to be able to say "I run E85, had pay to convert my entire fuel system, pay for a special tune, can't go 100 miles to a tank and am chained to the gas stations that have it at the pump"????
In the end, if that's cool with you: rock out :thumbsup:
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if bike is running normal simply do NOT do anything past fender eliminator and the can. Only one option: learn to ride; everything else is a total waste of time and money and whatever.
Bottom line: if you don't learn to ride, the bike will get rid of you the first chance. Bikes are very selective in their love life.
Bottom line: if you don't learn to ride, the bike will get rid of you the first chance. Bikes are very selective in their love life.
We have plenty of E85 out here haha. 1/3 stations has it and there’s usually 3 at each hot intersection.
Don’t worry I’ve got MR-12 too, and I can swap my maps on the fly. My power modes are loaded with maps for Full Power, E85, and MR-12. I’d rather not run MR-12 on the streets though because it’s expensive as hell. $100 a tank practically. E85 is roughly the same cost at the end of the day. It’s not expensive to convert granted all I have to do is the lines and pump. Maybe $100 at the end of the day. I’ve already got the tune so no problems there. Hell I can run it right now if I really want to, just don’t want to keep running it throughout the years and deteriorate stuff.I'm not trying to be a dick but E85 has very little in common with MR12. The only "performance gain" from running E85 is due to its high octane (105 if memory serves). MR12 actually has a lower octane by comparison (87 octane). The gain from E85 is 100% from running a more advanced ignition timing. MR12 is all about adding oxygen from the fuel. When tuning for a fuel like MR12 there is going to be an increase of about 10-15% in the fuel tables to offset the added oxygen brought in by the fuel, that's why MR12 works so well.
Running E85 might seem like a similar situation but it's really not. By adding to the octane count you can increase the spark advance but this will only get you so far, the engine still has a limit on how much oxygen it can pull in to mix with the fuel. Once you reach that limit, you have to start adding oxygen by other methods (forced induction, nitrous, oxygenated fuels).
My point here is that by doing such a conversion specifically to use high ethanol fuel, is hardly worth the cost in a bike. You'll see little performance in comparison to just having a secondary map switch for U4.4 or MR12.
How much is it worth to be able to say "I run E85, had pay to convert my entire fuel system, pay for a special tune, can't go 100 miles to a tank and am chained to the gas stations that have it at the pump"????
In the end, if that's cool with you: rock out <a href="http://Zx-10r.net/forum/images/smilies/smilies/thumbsup.gif" border="0" alt="" title="Thumbsup" ></a>
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in Michigan you can get e85 everywhere pretty much every Meijer in every town has it.
Like others have said it would need a pump for sure and a good dyno guy to up timing and fuel.
I wouldn't do it but hey if it makes good power I might have a change of heart
http://www.zx-10r.net/forum/f23/7whp-gain-e85-341385.html
I think I would ask the guy in post 9 more questions. He MIGHT share actual experience with it on a ZX10. ;-)
I think I would ask the guy in post 9 more questions. He MIGHT share actual experience with it on a ZX10. ;-)
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I put e85 in my gen 4 this spring after getting my injectors cleaned. I was able to street tune it pretty well on the street with stock pump/lines/injectors. Having a new baby and moving has left zero time to really dial in the tune with trying to add a bit of timing over my old pump gas map. I'd love to have it tuned but just too damn cheap when can street tune it for free when I find time.
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You haven’t gotten a chance to get it to to the track have you? I’d be curious to see what it picked up in the 1/4
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I’ve been running e85 in my zx10rr racebike for the last 6 months, tested back to back with pump or Panta 102 racefuel there’s a very noticeable difference without even changing the ignition map.
I tested it in my s1000rr stage 4 engine by just adding the extra fuel and the extra midrange made the bike difficult to ride, I ended up going back to Panta 102 just so I wouldn’t dump the bike that day. I couldn’t add more wheelie control and nearly flipped the bike at 220km/hr down the main straight.lol
I haven’t put the bikes on the dyno to see how much difference as I just don’t want my other competitors knowing how much of an increase it is..
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I tested it in my s1000rr stage 4 engine by just adding the extra fuel and the extra midrange made the bike difficult to ride, I ended up going back to Panta 102 just so I wouldn’t dump the bike that day. I couldn’t add more wheelie control and nearly flipped the bike at 220km/hr down the main straight.lol
I haven’t put the bikes on the dyno to see how much difference as I just don’t want my other competitors knowing how much of an increase it is..
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I might have missed it, but stock fuel system. I can get E85 locally and might consider trying it. How much fuel did you add? Did you change injector balance?
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643 Posts
I only took it out to the track once this year and was running better than last year with a stuck injector and pump gas but I don't think I saw a major difference to be honest. I'm also 20lbs heavier than last year thanks to my sympathy pregnancy weight not coming off like my wifes baby weight did lol.
I bought a e85 ECU that was tuned by ACE down in FL to try and see how much timing he added for E85 and he didn't add much like I would've thought. I have that ECU for sale if anybody wants an extra ECU to try out the E85 tune. I'd like to sell it to buy new stuff for my new man cave
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