Kawasaki ZX-10R Forum banner

1 - 14 of 14 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
462 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
I read this post on the R6 forum and was wondering if anyone with a 3rd Gen is running an ignition module. If so, have you seen any benefits from it and where in the RPM range/ throttle position did it help most?



Originally Posted by marc99
Re the Ignition Module -
All the ones that I've used, only change the timing +/- about 2-3 couple real world degrees - Not "10" degrees, like is in the program.
Essentially, the Power Commander Ignition Module tuning effective choices are "zero", 5 and 10.

Sounds like I'm the only one who actually tunes and uses the stuff.......
It's sometimes painful to see hearsay posts and guesses about how, why and when things work.....

One of the biggest potential improvement areas regarding changing ignition timing is the part throttle areas. In some areas, you can pick up 5% to 10% power at part throttle with the right ignition timing.
On an R6 and zx6r, there's tons of part throttle places that improve a lot at "the number 10".
For example, on our EC997 dyno, you can hold the throttle at 20%, the dyno holds the rpm to 4000 rpm - and you can see the realtime HP readout - Make a "5" or "10" change to the ignition timing, and you can hear the engine note change and the power change (for the better or worse).
If "5" and "10" make the same power, then, use "7".
That's not to say that full throttle power can't be improved, too (with "5" or "10") - but, setting ignition timing using a 4th gear Sweep test will usually result in the tuner over-advancing the timing (for the real world), as he's trying to make fuel burn quicker in a cold combustion chamber.
Best suggestion for that is to not tune ignition timing on a dynojet or dynojet style sweep test.

At any rate, as of April 2009, all of the Power Commander Ignition Modules that I've used only actually changed the timing a real ~2-3 degrees (while they said "10". Maybe there's some model that actually changes the timing 10 real degrees, but, I haven't used one - (and it's not he R1).

The answer is, that the Ignition Module does work (with race or pump gas) It doesn't really allow "10 degree" timing changes and there ARE still potential power gains BUT it's not very realistic to tune on a dynojet dyno in a reasonable amount of time or effectiveness as relating to the real world "optimal" settings.

So -
Buy one and custom tune it with someone who has something a bit more sophisticated than a dynojet dyno or don't buy one -

Thanks -

Marc
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
51 Posts
Quote from R6 forum (good sleuthing, btw!)

Ive played with ignition on my second gen and picked up a 2hp with an ignition module. Theres been a few post about it if you wanna try a search.
(in good humor) and focused more on the initial post -
..............................

Just remember what I meant in that R6 forum post -

1; On the IGN module - on an R6, "10" means 2 to 3 degrees. (proof: you can't change the timing 10 degrees and only have a 1% or 2% power change).

2. I MEANT to emphasize that you NEED to do IGN testing under LOAD - in Steady State - in order to get the engine's combustion chamber MATERIAL temperature to a realistic real world values.
A 7 to 8 second sweep test is totally un real world cold.
What works best in a cold combustion chamber isn't likely to be what works best in the hotter chamber, real world.

The reason why we started making EC997 dynamometers in the first place is because the "optimal" settings for a dynojet dyno run - did not equal what worked best in the real world - It's still that way - and a careful tuner will say that.
Most of the better dynojet tuners fiddle with the AFR values to get better street and track running.

3. When quoting me about tuning, dynos and bikes, be aware that I tend to qualify my statements fairly well.
When quoting me about music and movie reviews.... "not so much".....

If I "know" how a dj IGN module works on an R6, that's what I'll usually write.
It doesn't mean that I know how that module works on a zx10 or any other bike.
If I make a blanket statement, it's because I've seen it over and over and I've probably talked about it with other good tuners, too.

That being said, there are positive benefits to changing ignition timing and, for best real world results, I suggest that any ign settings be done under load, like on an EC997 or similar "low-inertia" brake dyno..

Best regards -

Marc Salvisberg
www.factorypro.com
415 491 5920
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,971 Posts
I figured since marc was quoted, id let him take control of this thread. I wasnt the only one that delete their post on this thread. :0)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
51 Posts
Hey - ask any question or relate any experience that you guys have or have had -
My attitude is that forum members should be able to learn and share.
That way, I learn, and so do most other people.

You guys are just as in control of the thread as I am - heck - each one of us is 100% in control till the very next post in the thread.... :)

Best regards -

Marc
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
685 Posts
Very, very interesting... I wonder if this holds true for the ignition module on the 10R as well?

Did you find a way to use a timing light or something else?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
51 Posts
Good idea

Very, very interesting... I wonder if this holds true for the ignition module on the 10R as well?
I don't know.

Did you find a way to use a timing light or something else?
Good idea -

On the R6, I suppose that I could have milled out a hole in the cover and placed a plastic window for a timing light - but a lot of times (usually), it's impossible to see through all the oil being thrown around.

I could have also used an oscilloscope too, but, changing the timing and recording power was close enough to get a general idea that the IM's '+10' wasn't "10 degrees".

I've done a lot of ignition tuning and changing the ignition timing 2 degrees usually changes the power about 1% (for better or worse).
On the R6, I saw 1% to about 2% power appear and disappear when going from "0" to "+10".

I'd guess that on an R6, +10 means 10% - and not 10 degrees, and the total valid table range is +10 to -10 "things".

They still call them "degrees" though -

Thanks -

Marc
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
685 Posts
Now thats a scary damn thought!!! A light bulb :idea: just went off in my head when you said that because for the fuel side, they do mean percentages! :eyecrazy:

Gonna go look at the timing map that RidgeRacer pulled out of the stock computer and see what the "percentages" of those numbers would be. DynoJet claims up to 10 degrees advanced or retarded but that doesn't mean that the numbers in the map are actual degrees...

Time will tell...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
685 Posts
Sent an email to DynoJet.

Looking at the map from the stock computer, 10% is anywhere from 1 degree to 3.6 degrees advanced!!:bs: Thats close enough to Marc's findings to call it good but I'll wait to see what response I get...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
685 Posts
Response from DynoJet...

"The Ignition table values indicate actual degrees over/under stock timing.

Let me know if you have any further questions."


I asked specifically about the 2004 ZX10R tho and I wonder if thats a standard response. Anyone want to ask about a ZX6R??
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
51 Posts
"The Ignition table values indicate actual degrees over/under stock timing.

Let me know if you have any further questions."

I asked specifically about the 2004 ZX10R tho and I wonder if that's a standard response. Anyone want to ask about a ZX6R??
I don't know about the zx10r - but I don't see the how r6 and r1 can be degrees. Not in my 30 years of experience.

Marc
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
685 Posts
So I was bored earlier today and decided to play around with the ignition timing at idle. Went from -10 to +10 and could really tell the difference in engine speed. Seemed like I was playing with the idle adjustment screw because the idle went from normal 1150 to 1500-2000 with a +10 in the idle spots.

From what I can tell, the "units" on the 10R just might be degrees of timing.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
51 Posts
Proven that "10 'does not equal 10 "degrees" on dj ign module.

So I was bored earlier today and decided to play around with the ignition timing at idle. Went from -10 to +10 and could really tell the difference in engine speed. Seemed like I was playing with the idle adjustment screw because the idle went from normal 1150 to 1500-2000 with a +10 in the idle spots.
I do a lot of ECU's that are in true degrees -
Changing the ign timing 3-4 true degrees might change the idle rpms the amounts that you experienced.

Adding or subtracting 10 true degrees would make the bike not idle at all. We already knew that, but, it was important that someone else did the bike testing.

But you DID do the +/- 10 test and proved that on a ZX10r, 10 dj degrees "isn't" 10 True degrees.

That being said, it is sad to see a map with 1's and 2's in it - that's maybe 1/3 degree to 2/3 degree - and that's simply immeasurable, as far as a dyno is concerned.

The dyno might be able to measure .1 or .2 hp, but, practically speaking, it takes more care than normal tuning and almost impossible to control the engine temps adequately well - especially on an inertia dyno.

Good job -

Marc
 
1 - 14 of 14 Posts
Top