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Discussion Starter #1
Hello.
So we put the race intake camshaft, decked head 0.04mm, 0.50mm hg and degreed the cams at 112.5 / 105.5
All measurements of cam timing is at 1mm lift of the cams.
The plan was to degree the race int cam to 110 but the ptv clearance was 1mm and we decided to leave it at 112.5 were the ptv clearance is 1.3mm
The exhaust is set at 105.5 were ptv clearance is 1.7mm
The results are the same whp as before with the stock engine.
I am very disappointed.
What do you guys suggest?
 

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Its notoriously difficult on G4 to make gains with can timing. G4 you should measure the drop at 0.50 earlier Gens are 0.40. Also the head needs another 0.2 mm shaving 0.6 sounds a lot but that's where the gain is with that head. Cutting the seats back to lower the numbers doesn't work either. Teams here prefer the Kent Cam Kawi 35 as it uses a higher lift to get gains.
 

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Formerly CLCRACINGAaron
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Hello.
So we put the race intake camshaft, decked head 0.04mm, 0.50mm hg and degreed the cams at 112.5 / 105.5
All measurements of cam timing is at 1mm lift of the cams.
The plan was to degree the race int cam to 110 but the ptv clearance was 1mm and we decided to leave it at 112.5 were the ptv clearance is 1.3mm
The exhaust is set at 105.5 were ptv clearance is 1.7mm
The results are the same whp as before with the stock engine.
I am very disappointed.
What do you guys suggest?
Take it to a shop that works with those bikes and let them work their magic. KWS Motorsports in Charleston SC, or EDR Performance in Portland OR.
 

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common results. decked the head .016? measured int/ex ptv at 10-15 degrees after/before tdc? little surprised ur that snug on int at 110. pita to redegree, but that int clereance is adquate on that engine, tight but ok. dont know if this will help but remember stretched 10r had a customers gen 4 on dyno with identical cam timing and mods as yours. making about 183 and not happy. called and 110/108 cam #'s produced 193. that was his experience, his motor, cant say ur's will do same. just put a 400 lift/longer duration web in a gen 1 zx10, not happy with the tuned results myself, hp a little off and torque curve soft. i degreed my gen 3 race int 4 times before i found the power/et/mph i wanted. originally degreed at 108, only change made was int to 110.5 bike jumped 6 mph in 1/4. picked up little more mph better et at 111, slowed up at 112. kaw race int cams are very sensitive to cam degree, at least on my builds. really seems that way on gen 4 in particular. one conclusion i have come to is be careful with larger/longer duration cams in any 1000cc bike especially the kaws. they have the highest lobe intensity stock of all the brands already.
 

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one other culprit worth mentioning imo is the decked head. that gen 4 head is most difficult to mill square and flat as it is angle milled from kaw. i've done the setup before, never took less than two hours with a tool bar chucked up in the mill and dual dial indicators attached to each end. head has to be shimmed where indicators read 0 full length, full width sweep of the head at all points within a thousands or two max when fastened down. get a larger deviation and head bows slightley when torqued down distorting valve seats and valve seal lost on a few valves killing hp. been there, done that and learned from it. leak down test best, but simple 10mm sparkplug compression gauge adapter plumbed to 90-100 psi air source, cyl at tdc wil reveal int/ex valve leakage by air escaping.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Gaz your posts are always full of good information.
Head is decked to the right angle.
I didn't want to get extra compression from head so I decked the minimum just to be sure it's cleaned/straight.
I also checked each valve before assembly and none is leaking.
Ptv clearance checked at 10 degrees as kawi race manual suggests.
So you say its safe on this 14k high revving motor to set the intake ptv clearance at 1mm?
I now kawi say minimum 0.7mm but I am a little concerned about my engine life.
The other problem with my motor is that power never ends and still climbing.
It hits rev limiter at 13950 and max power is at 13950rpm.
With this power curve everyone would suggest to lower the exhaust cam numbers not raise them.
 

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Gaz your posts are always full of good information.
Head is decked to the right angle.
I didn't want to get extra compression from head so I decked the minimum just to be sure it's cleaned/straight.
I also checked each valve before assembly and none is leaking.
Ptv clearance checked at 10 degrees as kawi race manual suggests.
So you say its safe on this 14k high revving motor to set the intake ptv clearance at 1mm?
I now kawi say minimum 0.7mm but I am a little concerned about my engine life.
The other problem with my motor is that power never ends and still climbing.
It hits rev limiter at 13950 and max power is at 13950rpm.
With this power curve everyone would suggest to lower the exhaust cam numbers not raise them.
With this power curve you would want to lower intake cam number, I'd start with a deg less and go from there, you'd gain more power under the curve.
 

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Formerly CLCRACINGAaron
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Gaz your posts are always full of good information.
Head is decked to the right angle.
I didn't want to get extra compression from head so I decked the minimum just to be sure it's cleaned/straight.
I also checked each valve before assembly and none is leaking.
Ptv clearance checked at 10 degrees as kawi race manual suggests.
So you say its safe on this 14k high revving motor to set the intake ptv clearance at 1mm?
I now kawi say minimum 0.7mm but I am a little concerned about my engine life.
The other problem with my motor is that power never ends and still climbing.
It hits rev limiter at 13950 and max power is at 13950rpm.
With this power curve everyone would suggest to lower the exhaust cam numbers not raise them.
Why can't you raise the rev limiter?
 

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we all do mods differentley. congrats on checking all that u did, most do not. i also ck all valves assembled in head for leakage before head installation buti have come to know as perfectley bench shimmed valve clereances can/will change once a head is torqued on the block, valve seats subject to same distortion, especially if head not perfectley flat. ur confident head milled correctley and that's great, just saying checking final assembley valve leakage can be present. yes i think ur safe ptv at .040, that's a minimium for me, my 07 has about .048 with 31mm steel intakes and flashed to 14k, turns a real 13500, 14200 tach indicated in the traps with no contact after pulling head twice and inspecting. has carpenter springs retainers. cam degree #'s are a matter of gathered information, opinion or experience. dont disagree with ex lc ur running, i run a little higher on ex, has worked well for me especially with compression mods. agree with thunder coupe, int lc needs to come down, moreso than ex needs to be raised. 112.5 is out there without big compression supporting it. think u have more power to be made at lower rpm. should increase torque also. one setup makes peak hp at 13950, another makes same hp at 13000, which is real world faster and safer? kinda what cam timing is all about.
 

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I didn't want to get extra compression from head so I decked the minimum just to be sure it's cleaned/straight.
Decking only 0.04mm is not compensating for lost of dynamic compression from race longer duration and intake valve closing later. Like suggested, mill more. I saw no difference switching between std and race intake (having thin gasket and 0.25mm mill). I suspect race cams like 0.35mm to be milled and pth kept to minimum.
 

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I was hearing that the Kawi brand cams are very conservative... hence the reason they're like $200. You're mostly trading power in the curve & not really influencing the peaks. You're better off getting with someone like RC Performance for some massive cams and probably a 6-10HP gain. Your low end will take a beating, but if it's all about the numbers then you'll be happy. If it's a race bike and you spend all day above 6K RPM then you'll be even more happy. It's gonna cost you like $150/HP though.
 

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I was hearing that the Kawi brand cams are very conservative... hence the reason they're like $200. You're mostly trading power in the curve & not really influencing the peaks. You're better off getting with someone like RC Performance for some massive cams and probably a 6-10HP gain. Your low end will take a beating, but if it's all about the numbers then you'll be happy. If it's a race bike and you spend all day above 6K RPM then you'll be even more happy. It's gonna cost you like $150/HP though.
I've seen Gen 5 kit cams gain 8whp on the dyno when degreed properly but ok.
 

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I was hearing that the Kawi brand cams are very conservative... hence the reason they're like $200. You're mostly trading power in the curve & not really influencing the peaks. You're better off getting with someone like RC Performance for some massive cams and probably a 6-10HP gain. Your low end will take a beating, but if it's all about the numbers then you'll be happy. If it's a race bike and you spend all day above 6K RPM then you'll be even more happy. It's gonna cost you like $150/HP though.
"Hearing" haha. I don't doubt with the right accommodations it can make power. I just wouldn't expect $200 gains to match $1000 custom grinds. Could be wrong.
Offering advice based on what you "heard" isn't really helping anyone. If you look at the other replies, people are offering advice based on real world experience. Internet gospel doesn't help in this case.
 

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So with all this talk about power curves, what about raising the rev limit to the level that allows for some semblance of an overrev. I think I read somewhere that KRT machines rev over 15k rpms. GRANDED....they have the money/time/resources to burn up motors every other weekend, but isn't there something we can do to run a 14.5k limit? Like a trackbike/racebike only type of thing.
 

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This is a 2015 head skimmed down too the max 0.8mm you can just make out where the tooling clipped the valve seats, that's the darker streaking on the face. 0.6mm allows for a distortion when torquing down.
 

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Discussion Starter #19
I have no idea, all the technical information, ie Kit manual, web cam, Kent cam started listing @ 0.50 for this Gen for some reason. I just do it as its there.
I can't find the spot in the kit manual that says to check or adjust the cam timing @ 0.50
 

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Discussion Starter #20
thundercoupe9 and gaz
If it was easy in this bike to change timing I would do the same thing.
Generally it's better to change the lc on one cam check the power curve and then think what to do with the other cam.
In a week or 2 I will take the engine off and try the 110/108 timing that Gaz suggested.
At least this timing worked for someone.
If it works for me too then I will tune per cylinder and if there are any gains.
 
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