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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
EDIT: How do you torque the clutch springs without the hub spinning?

Summary since long post:
-Stack recieved= clutch slips completely
-Stack with extra steel = To high, clutch wont engage and just stalls bike
-Stack difference between new and one pulled 1/32 of and inch
-Could be stretched cable, damaged rod, or damaged lever and not stack height?
-Could pulling the chatter and using only two good steals out of old clutch make it even?
-Could hub not be fully tight?

Alright so I have searched a ton over the last few days and want to get some takes on my problem first hand.

Fried the clutch at the track last week, long story short pulled in out and steels were toasted and blue. Ordered a Drag Pak from Cycle Concepts friday afternoon and had it on my porch tuesday afternoon. Awesome service and fast shipping.

So soak the fibers and install it following the Fiber, (new from dewayne) chatter plate, fiber, steel, fiber, etc all the way out to having a fiber as the final.

I currently have 3 stock springs 3 heavy duty (with 2 washers on the end of each heavy spring to make them the same height as the stock, is this normal)? Thread those in and when I go to torque the spring bolts the whole hub just spins and I cannot get it to stay in place so I was not sure the exact torque but they were solidly on there. So button it all up and install the lever back onto the clutch cable. Fill her with brand new oil and new filter, start it up and let her warm. Pull it out of the garage and go into 1st, let the clutch out and bike barely moves and I can rev it without it grabbing or bike moving.

So I pull it out thinking stack height is short for some reason, turns out that the old clutch had no chatter plate but extra steels instead. Totalling 21 fibers and steels. The new pack has a total of 19 with the chatter, 20 if you count the chatter as 2. Being dumb and in a hurry I think oh throw in another steel and it'll be the same. Wrong, install it all again and now to tall and bike dies immediately from neutral to 1st with clutch in. So now Im lost, Called Dewayne next day and he said his should be right and check everything else.

Only thing I can think of is the springs were not tight enough, however not sure if that would cause this. Next inspected the clutch rod (part # 13116) and the lever (part #13102). Rod seems a little chewed but nothing bad and the lever the same, where it meets the rod it is warn a bit but nothing near what I have seen in others peoples posts I found here that caused trouble.



Also my lever is not the 60 degree angle like in the manual, it appears to actually grab the clutch almost exactly in line with the engine when standing directly next to it so was thinking maybe a stretched cable since both adjustments are all the way out.

SO, what do you all think this could be? Simple stack height problem? Cable stretched and stock height will work? Rod or lever, or both, are shot and need replacing?

Only reason I think it is height is when it didnt engage when first putting it in. Stack difference from the new drag pak to the clutch I pulled out is exactly one small hash mark (sorry terrible with measurment still) I believe being 1/32 of an inch on a standard tape measure.

Any insight at all would help! Sorry this is so long

-Charlie
 

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Sounds like quite the predicament. Hope you get it worked out.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Thinking about it I think I have whats wrong.

When all installed the clutch rod has probably an inch of play in and out. Is this normal?

I am thinking no, and I did not have the hub torqued hard enough to have it all engaged, also causing the extra play in the lever.

HOW THE F*%K do you get the hub to not spin so I can torque it to the recommended 87lbs????
 

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center hub nut needs a clutch holding tool to hold the hub while you torque the nut. make sure to use the correct loctite (620 i believe). it is best to have two sets of hands, one to hold the clutch and holder, and one to torque the hub nut.

the outer pressure plate bolts are ALOT easier to torque, to ALOT lesser spec.

why did you pull the center hub nut? did you replace the entire basket? changing clutches? if you were just swapping new plates and fibres, you didnt have to pull that center hub nut. Ski
 

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No no!!! Do not put anything extra on the heavy springs. Put them in just like a stock one. That's more or less puttin that much more pressure on 3 points and taking away from the stock ones. Depending on what kinda mods you have 3 heavy and 3 stock springs Are more than enough spring pressure for all motor racin. But take the washers off of the 3 heavy springs. That definitely isn't good.


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No no!!! Do not put anything extra on the heavy springs. Put them in just like a stock one. That's more or less puttin that much more pressure on 3 points and taking away from the stock ones. Depending on what kinda mods you have 3 heavy and 3 stock springs Are more than enough spring pressure for all motor racin. But take the washers off of the 3 heavy springs. That definitely isn't good.


Dude put the bike in gear to torque the springs down. That'll keep it from spinnin

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if you take a look in the 04-05 service manual there is a picture of the clutch holder tool, gives you an idea on how it works, usualy i just make all the tools i need myself :wink:
 

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Discussion Starter #8
center hub nut needs a clutch holding tool to hold the hub while you torque the nut. make sure to use the correct loctite (620 i believe). it is best to have two sets of hands, one to hold the clutch and holder, and one to torque the hub nut.

the outer pressure plate bolts are ALOT easier to torque, to ALOT lesser spec.

why did you pull the center hub nut? did you replace the entire basket? changing clutches? if you were just swapping new plates and fibres, you didnt have to pull that center hub nut. Ski
I did not remove the center hub. I was referring to the 6 spring bolts. Once they are snugged with the drille, I go to tighten them with the torque wrench and the entire hub just spins against the fiber not allowing me to get a good pull.

No no!!! Do not put anything extra on the heavy springs. Put them in just like a stock one. That's more or less puttin that much more pressure on 3 points and taking away from the stock ones. Depending on what kinda mods you have 3 heavy and 3 stock springs Are more than enough spring pressure for all motor racin. But take the washers off of the 3 heavy springs. That definitely isn't good.


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Hmmm ok will definitely take those out then. Where would these 6 washers go then? With the washers they make the springs the same height as the 3 others.

Could they go somewhere on the hub where it meets the clutch rod?

Also does your clutch rod which goes through the center of the Hub have any play in and out once all is tightened or should it just be solid with no movement other than when the bolt is engaging the clutch?
 

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Not sure why you posted those pics of other bikes fiche s :dontknow: I had the drag pak before didn't work out at first either slipping on the hwy constantly needing to adjust finally after time and time again it worked :dontknow: the height seemed right what I measured but the bike has miles on her....actually tried it twice now running pieces from almost no miles on them which is OEM and believe one thicker steel and different 3 springs.

Make sure you don't put another steel in you have to put thicker or thinner plates in they can make that much of a difference.

Also when you do the adjustment test the bike out before starting in on the rear stand when you dis-engage the clutch....can you no turn it with your hand and when engaged is it impossible to turn...i start out with that for checking and sometimes make more adjustments later......hopes this helps not a clutch expert but have replaced mine at least 5 times on this Gen 1 so experienced many things like this at times...I ride street and same setup for drag racing so I need it to work both ways just like it was when I first bought it. :wink:

bloo
 

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Discussion Starter #10
Not sure why you posted those pics of other bikes fiche s :dontknow: I had the drag pak before didn't work out at first either slipping on the hwy constantly needing to adjust finally after time and time again it worked :dontknow: the height seemed right what I measured but the bike has miles on her....actually tried it twice now running pieces from almost no miles on them which is OEM and believe one thicker steel and different 3 springs.

Make sure you don't put another steel in you have to put thicker or thinner plates in they can make that much of a difference.

Also when you do the adjustment test the bike out before starting in on the rear stand when you dis-engage the clutch....can you no turn it with your hand and when engaged is it impossible to turn...i start out with that for checking and sometimes make more adjustments later......hopes this helps not a clutch expert but have replaced mine at least 5 times on this Gen 1 so experienced many things like this at times...I ride street and same setup for drag racing so I need it to work both ways just like it was when I first bought it. :wink:

bloo
Appreciate the response. I didnt even notice until now that was a zx6 haha, sorry. It is actually the same part numbers though as the zx10 part display in the online catalogs so its the same.

CAN SOMEONE PLEASE TELL ME HOW TO TORQUE THE SPRINGS WITHOUT SPINNING THE HUB???
 

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Discussion Starter #11 (Edited)
if you take a look in the 04-05 service manual there is a picture of the clutch holder tool, gives you an idea on how it works, usualy i just make all the tools i need myself :wink:
THANK YOU!

This is needed to do the springs correct? Not just the hub?

Also can anyone answer my questions about the clutch rod? should there be in and out play or not? because this would also indicate a problem since mine has about an inch play from all the way against the basket to all the way out against the hub
 

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those outer spring bolts do not need to be torqued to high poundages. make sure you
re-check the spec before you break some bolts off. you should be able to torque them with the bike in first gear, and your foot on the rear brake lever. worse case, put in gear, slide a bar through the rear wheel wrapped in a towell to avoid marring the wheel.

ski
 

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if you are talking about the above bolt in the fiche pic (#92153 on the Lt side pics) the spec is 95 INCH POUNDS!!!!!

the outer cup screw is 87 INCH POUNDS (#120 in the fiche pic)

if you are trying to get 87 foot pounds, you are going to break something BADLY. Ski
 

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those outer spring bolts do not need to be torqued to high poundages. make sure you
re-check the spec before you break some bolts off. you should be able to torque them with the bike in first gear, and your foot on the rear brake lever. worse case, put in gear, slide a bar through the rear wheel wrapped in a towell to avoid marring the wheel.

ski
yeah that is one easy way of doing it, was looking at the gen1 manual and you only need 10n.m on them and thats next to nothing (same as clutch cover bolts)
I use the metric system since the imperial system is kinda jibberish to me...
 

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I did not remove the center hub. I was referring to the 6 spring bolts. Once they are snugged with the drille, I go to tighten them with the torque wrench and the entire hub just spins against the fiber not allowing me to get a good pull.



Hmmm ok will definitely take those out then. Where would these 6 washers go then? With the washers they make the springs the same height as the 3 others.

Could they go somewhere on the hub where it meets the clutch rod?

Also does your clutch rod which goes through the center of the Hub have any play in and out once all is tightened or should it just be solid with no movement other than when the bolt is engaging the clutch?
The washers are what they call shims. 6 are made to put one on all springs. But since you have 3 stuffer ones you don't really need them. If you still don't feel you have enough for some odd reason.. Just put put one washer on each of the stock springs not the stiffer ones. When you put a washer on a spring it gives it more pressure. Don't worry about the springs being the same height as the stock ones. When you tighten them down it will be fine. I have had 3 stuff springs and 3 stock springs for years now. It's just enough spring pressure to help your clutch last longer but not too much.


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Discussion Starter #16 (Edited)
Alright thanks guys. Gonna head to the garage soon as I am done watching the bears lose and take it ALL apart and put it back together SLOWLY and CAREFULLY according to everything here.


Will Report back later tonight or tomorrow and let you guys know how it went.

Edit: just for clarification, the stock springs are gold and spaced like this....


and stiffer like this....


Correct?
 

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i know i just destroyed my gen 1 clutch, i built my own set up using a gen 2 and gen 1 clutch, had to put 2 steels together in the middle of the pack to work. works great at the strip now with no slipping... just make sure the stack hits the right height
 

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Discussion Starter #18 (Edited)
Alright so got it a back together after measuring Multiple times and eventually getting the stack height 1/32 taller than the pack that came out and removing the washers to take away some spring pressure.

However thinking the cable is stretched or the clutch rod or lever that goes into the case is shot. With the adjustment on both the lever and lower adjusted as much as possible it still does not fully disengage the clutch due to amount of play in the lever.

Any ideas what could fix this or be the problem?

Videos showing how the disengaging currently is...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q3GhuIT5vQQ&feature=youtu.be

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-eco8d-4YCk&feature=youtu.be

and here is with the cover off showing the clutch rod. Thinking I might just order a new rod and lever along with the new cable unless someone has some insight here???
 

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Alright so got it a back together after measuring Multiple times and eventually getting the stack height 1/32 taller than the pack that came out and removing the washers to take away some spring pressure.

However thinking the cable is stretched or the clutch rod or lever that goes into the case is shot. With the adjustment on both the lever and lower adjusted as much as possible it still does not fully disengage the clutch due to amount of play in the lever.

Any ideas what could fix this or be the problem?

Videos showing how the disengaging currently is...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q3GhuIT5vQQ&feature=youtu.be

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-eco8d-4YCk&feature=youtu.be

and here is with the cover off showing the clutch rod. Thinking I might just order a new rod and lever along with the new cable unless someone has some insight here???
The clutch engagement rod is easy to wear out. I've gone through a few of them. It'll happen. It's pretty cheap though. You can pull it out and look in the groove and see if it's tore up. To me it sounds like it is.


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Discussion Starter #20
The clutch engagement rod is easy to wear out. I've gone through a few of them. It'll happen. It's pretty cheap though. You can pull it out and look in the groove and see if it's tore up. To me it sounds like it is.


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By clutch engagement rod you mean the lever attached to the cable or the rod inside the case? I was considering replacing both.

Where did you buy your from? Saw them around 40 bucks a piece and just wanna make sure that's usual pricing.
 
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