Kawasaki ZX-10R Forum banner

201 - 220 of 258 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,860 Posts
Question if anybody smarter than me looks at this. From what I could find on reading the two numbers added plus 180 should be close to the stock duration of the cam. From the race kit manual it says stock exhaust duration is 293 degrees but my numbers only show 247.5. I remember the last time I did this the numbers were similar but I didn't do as much reading last and didn't think twice about it.
It's all about at what lift you measure the duration. In the car industry they tend to measure @ .050" open/close; you end up with a lot shorter 'advertised' duration that way as opposed to measuring at a point when the lobe just starts to lift, as this makes the measurements easier and more consistent. The cam in my old big block was sold as a 286/292 duration, but at .050 it was actually 248/254 (see link for reference, the cam card lists 2 sets of duration on there: 23-702-9(Three Bolt) - Xtreme Energy? Street Mechanical Roller Camshafts ) Calculating the duration from the moment the lobe moves the valve gives really cool, big duration numbers... but at that point you have to start figuring in valve lash and engine temperature if you want to be really accurate.... it's just easier and a bit more 'honest' to standardize the measurement at a given lift point. :)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
629 Posts
Discussion Starter #202
It's all about at what lift you measure the duration. In the car industry they tend to measure @ .050" open/close; you end up with a lot shorter 'advertised' duration that way as opposed to measuring at a point when the lobe just starts to lift, as this makes the measurements easier and more consistent. The cam in my old big block was sold as a 286/292 duration, but at .050 it was actually 248/254 (see link for reference, the cam card lists 2 sets of duration on there: 23-702-9(Three Bolt) - Xtreme Energy? Street Mechanical Roller Camshafts ) Calculating the duration from the moment the lobe moves the valve gives really cool, big duration numbers... but at that point you have to start figuring in valve lash and engine temperature if you want to be really accurate.... it's just easier and a bit more 'honest' to standardize the measurement at a given lift point. :)
You da man!:eek:ccasion1

That makes sense the way you explained it. I could've sworn I read somewhere that you should double check and should have the same duration. But maybe that was on an aftermarket cam that they give those .050" duration like on the link you had provided vs the overall duration.

Just me thinking outloud as I'm an engine internal n00b but find it interesting. If I were to say have my valve clearances set to exactly zero, then I measured the degree when the valve just started to open up and measured right before the valve closed I'd probably get the advertised duration.

Thank you!!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
566 Posts
U have found 247,5 cause u are measure the duration for 1mm of lift.

I think Kawasaki measure it to 0.1mm of lift .
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
279 Posts
measuring at .040-.050 lift is moreaccurate as cam lobe has passed thru the soft cushioning opening/closing ramps built in for longer cam/valve train life. not hardley any flow occuring at these slow opening/closing lifts. race cams are shorter opening ramps acclerating the valve to higher lifts quicker where more flow occurs and holding it open at full lift longer where max flow occurs for best cyl filling. finding accurate tdc is absolutley necessary degreeing. also u should know exact cam lift when setting up dial indicator. to insure indicator setup accurate u should roll engine thru and check indicated cam lift. pointer angle off will skew numbers several degrees. indicator should be set up very close to valve stem angle. measured cam lift should be within just thousands max of advertised lift less lash clereance. .385 cam, .007 valve clereance, nets .378 net lift, i'm looking for measured lift within .005 of that number, less better. i degree all cams with running valve lash, as that's the way they operate real world. i'm not seeing what lift u checked u checked duration at, ur numbers add up, but that duration looks high.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
629 Posts
Discussion Starter #205
U have found 247,5 cause u are measure the duration for 1mm of lift.

I think Kawasaki measure it to 0.1mm of lift .
Good know! I was measuring at .040" so it makes sense.

measuring at .040-.050 lift is moreaccurate as cam lobe has passed thru the soft cushioning opening/closing ramps built in for longer cam/valve train life. not hardley any flow occuring at these slow opening/closing lifts. race cams are shorter opening ramps acclerating the valve to higher lifts quicker where more flow occurs and holding it open at full lift longer where max flow occurs for best cyl filling. finding accurate tdc is absolutley necessary degreeing. also u should know exact cam lift when setting up dial indicator. to insure indicator setup accurate u should roll engine thru and check indicated cam lift. pointer angle off will skew numbers several degrees. indicator should be set up very close to valve stem angle. measured cam lift should be within just thousands max of advertised lift less lash clereance. .385 cam, .007 valve clereance, nets .378 net lift, i'm looking for measured lift within .005 of that number, less better. i degree all cams with running valve lash, as that's the way they operate real world. i'm not seeing what lift u checked u checked duration at, ur numbers add up, but that duration looks high.
Thank you for all the info Jim, your wealth of knowledge honestly amazes me!

When I was degreeing the exhaust cam I do remember watching the dial indicator at max lift and seeing it max out at .350 and remember thinking hey that was a nice easy number to remember. When looking at the race manual it says stock exhaust lift is 9.1mm or google translate says .3583". Then I believe my valve clearance was .21mm or .0083". So I think when I did the exhaust cam my dial indicator was set up pretty good.


I tried checking piston to valve clearance last night on the exhaust cam and the clearances were too tight. Then I looked at my makeshift extension (threaded rod of not the exact thread pitch) and it wasn't perfectly straight and was worried that it could be skewing my numbers. I'm seeing if anybody I know locally has some dial indicator extensions, otherwise I'll order some on amazon but those wont be here until Monday. I need the extensions as the dial indicators I have wont clear the tool to get an accurate reading.

My whole house has been passing around a cold bug so maybe a few days of catching up on sleep might not be a bad thing either. I might just try to get the new brake lines on and new swing arm on as well if I have to wait on those extension rods.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
279 Posts
duration #'s at .040 probabley pretty close as u read them, just degreed some 14r cams last week noting duration at .040 243 degrees on both stock cams, 236 @.050 with .008 valve lash. what ptv did u come up with on ur ex at degreed #'s? decked ur head .015 correct? valve job sunk valves probabley .008 so net ptv only changed less than .010.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
629 Posts
Discussion Starter #208
I always measure at 1mm =0.039".....

never missed a beat.. with the cams like they operate.
:eek:ccasion1

duration #'s at .040 probabley pretty close as u read them, just degreed some 14r cams last week noting duration at .040 243 degrees on both stock cams, 236 @.050 with .008 valve lash. what ptv did u come up with on ur ex at degreed #'s? decked ur head .015 correct? valve job sunk valves probabley .008 so net ptv only changed less than .010.
Would you recommend using .040 or .050 when degreeing? I would assume the math works out to the same numbers but the duration reading will be different like you posted with .050 being less duration.

I think it was like .046" and I think it the the closest at 8*BTDC. Think at 10*BTDC was pretty close to the same. But I don't really trust those numbers at my extension rod looked like it was at a bit of an angle. I also remember thinking that when I spun the motor over to make sure the indicator was moving freely that at max lift it didn't hit .35 like it was when i was degreeing the cams without my makeshift extension rod. I ordered some extension rods that should be available for me to pick up tomorrow so I'll hopefully be confident in my numbers tomorrow night.

I see in the race manual it says min valve to piston clearance on intake is 0.7mm or .028" and exhaust min is 1.2mm or .047". I had wrote down from a post when I was searching the forum that you had posted in a different thread that is too tight and recommend .050" on intake and .060" on exhaust. Are those what you would shoot for or did I copy down the wrong numbers?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
629 Posts
Discussion Starter #210
Was able to get out in the garage for a bit last night and got the front brake line on and weighed the stock brake stuff.

New line was pretty light compared to the stock line. The brocks wheel spacers came in at 3/4 ounces




Stock rotor/bolts


Stock caliper with stock brake pads in it.





Then since I can't run the stock fairings with the xxl intake and I know I wont have the time to paint my track fairings I was curious if the armour bodies front fender was lighter than stock. Since the track fairings are green might as well see if the fender was lighter and keep the matching green fender
Stock


armour bodies



saved a bit lol. I'll try and weigh the stock fairings too and the race fairings and see how much weight is saved there as well. I think I weighed it before but never wrote anything down or took pictures.


Overall figured with the no front brake and after market fender saved me 6lbs 5 3/8 ounces. Was more than I was expecting.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
393 Posts
Have you weighed the entire bike yet, my Gen 4 weighed in at 388lbs with fuel last weekend with full lights etc, I'd imagine you should be lighter
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
629 Posts
Discussion Starter #213
haha puttin' that girl on a diet! You may miss having 6 lbs over the front axle in the first 60' though.... it'll be cool to here your impressions. :)
I was hopeful that the extra few inches I'm extending it this year plus the ability to strap it more than last year now that I'll have a bit more clearance with the flat pan and sidewinder will make me not miss it too much. I did order the normal stainless brake lines incase it does suck I can put the other stainless line on and at least save a few ounces lol

Have you weighed the entire bike yet, my Gen 4 weighed in at 388lbs with fuel last weekend with full lights etc, I'd imagine you should be lighter
Back in 2015 at the scales at a big NHRA track it came in at 395. Looking back at old pictures I took of weights, between removing rear brakes, 520 chains/aluminum sprockets and the other little stuff I documented I'd guess itd be in the 382ish range.

That doesn't include the track fairings that'll run tho which I think saved almost 5lbs by not putting the headlights back in and I also didn't put any of the rubber mats back above the motor when I put it back last time which I remember being pretty heavy. Might have saved a few ounces between removing all the power commander boxes/launch master and going straight woolich with less boxes/wiring. The new longer chain and swingarm will probably add a bit of weight tho.

I'm very curious to see what it weighs with the scale method I've seen you do. Once its all together I'll be sure to get a weight and post it up. I'd guess 380ish, maybe crack into the 170s if I can get a grudge tank setup I'll start saving my pennies for.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,059 Posts
Still lurking round here... love this thread dude! A lil jealous you got GAz headwork but super happy for ya. Had a popular local drag guy around Indy do mine or id send it to Jim in a sec! Bike becomes a monster with cam dialed in, port, valve job and slight head mill + gasket. Im not stretched yet and at 140#'s in gear - its hold on for dear life!

Been trying to soak up the cam timing talk n learn some stuff myself! Dying to weigh mine as well! Good work happening in this thread!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
629 Posts
Discussion Starter #216
I just wanted to say thank you to Jim (gaz), he has been so helpful with everything that. I texted him Friday night and he ended up calling me and talking with me and giving me some super helpful tips to get my cams dialed in better. I think when I had my degree wheel on the stator side it wasn't centered or something. I had asked Jim if he thought my piston to valve clearances seemed right as they were really tight and thats when he called and told me to throw the degree wheel over to the timing side and gave me some pointers to get it spaced out better than I had before. When I had it on the stator side i think the degree wheel might have not been centered on the bolt or something as I would get the same amount on TDC on the degree wheel when turning the motor over to the piston stop on each side. But then I put it to TDC off the timing rotor and I was off by like 2* at TDC on the timing rotor.

Got it on the timing side and things wen't much smoother and was able to get the minimum piston to valve clearances stated in the race manual at 110 on the intake and 108 on the exhaust.



Walking into the house after going out to get some bbq with my little man he walked straight to the bike lift and picked up a t handle. Hopefully he likes spending time in the garage once it gets a little warmer. He goes, but dad theres no motor in there...


After finishing up getting the cams degree'd in I was able to get the engine covers back on and in the bike. When putting in the spark plugs, I even torqued them to spec since I had the torque wrench handy. Think that was the first time I've ever torqued spark plugs in my life :crackup:

Then I was able to get the motor up in the bike Saturday night. It went pretty easy using the lift method I used to get it out. Wasn't too bad at all by myself with the flat pan to help keep it stable.



When I used to roll the bike on the lift before I had to use a few boards to get it up on the lift as the ramp isn't super long. When I pushed it back on the lift this time I had plenty of clearance with the oil pan and from what I've seen people say the oil pan hangs lower than the sidewinder so maybe I can get the bike in my trailer now to without extra ramps lol


I got some other misc little things done like some sensors plugged back in. Should get my exhaust back tonight so I can get that on then the radiator. Might send my injectors to a local guy to get cleaned quick as he's only 5 min away if he can knock them out quick. Might be running by the weekend but I don't think it'll be ready to race this weekend like I had hoped. I'm just too slow of a worker.


That thing is going to move the fuck out, of that I am certain. :)
Lol hopefully it goes a bit quicker than last year, or at least stays the same. Nice to just tinker on something in the garage that doesn't make sawdust :grin2:

Still lurking round here... love this thread dude! A lil jealous you got GAz headwork but super happy for ya. Had a popular local drag guy around Indy do mine or id send it to Jim in a sec! Bike becomes a monster with cam dialed in, port, valve job and slight head mill + gasket. Im not stretched yet and at 140#'s in gear - its hold on for dear life!

Been trying to soak up the cam timing talk n learn some stuff myself! Dying to weigh mine as well! Good work happening in this thread!
Thank you. I wish I was your weight, thats gotta be a monster at that weight! Cam timing is something I think I only sightly understand, someday maybe I'll learn more, but for now, I'll set my stuff to what Jim says lol. Feel like any knowledge I used to have on some stuff has been replaced by kid books, I have more kids books/songs memorized than I ever thought I could lol.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,474 Posts
Nice to see it all coming together, I think your idea about "might" send out your injectors to get cleaned should be 'will" send my injectors to get cleaned matched and balanced, even though you will miss this weekend's racing, you will benefit from the reassurance and extra % the time will give you, it would be a shame to have come this far and not taken care of the basics.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,059 Posts
Nice to see it all coming together, I think your idea about "might" send out your injectors to get cleaned should be 'will" send my injectors to get cleaned matched and balanced, even though you will miss this weekend's racing, you will benefit from the reassurance and extra % the time will give you, it would be a shame to have come this far and not taken care of the basics.
:+1:

After laying out a few G's on exhaust and head work, im not letting a $100 injector clean get in the way of things. If we're going for every little ounce - this is where its at. Lucky if you have a good local guy who wont just try to stick em in a cheap Harbor Freight ultrasonic parts cleaner. :wink2:
 
  • Like
Reactions: C3L1CA

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,474 Posts
There's more to it than just cleaning, you want them flow tested so you can fit them appropriately before dyno. If your using standard stacks, you fit the highest flow in 2&3 cylinders and lower flow 1&4 but for the top rail the higher flow in 1&4 and lower flow in 2&3. Then get your dyno man to tune 2&3 1&4 in there pairs and maintain the cylinder offset. That's a better cost effective way of getting more bang for your buck, the cost of individual cylinder tuning doesn't warrant typically 1% in the trim.
 
201 - 220 of 258 Posts
Top