[Doped2ndgen]

I've been running a dry nitrous set up for a couple years now & just abusing this bike generally speaking for 30k miles. I put it together to do Everything from track days (had to unhook nitrous ☹) to roll racing on the intersate with the goal of still being reliable. Motor is toast so Now I finally have an excuse to build a low compression motor for boost.

With that being said I'm shooting for a "reliable" 300-350 whp street monster to run with high end cars from 60-100 up rolls. I've had much better luck in the past surprising people what can be done without a stretched swing arm so I believe I'll be better off ramping up my boost in a linear manner to keep thing "under control".

So my question is, is this even really possible to build and have the motor last any length of time? I realize na applications are best but no chance of the power i want. I'm curious about longevity for my application. It seems like 20 lbs of boost is going to be the magic number according to spazonazx thread. My budget for the build is no more than 15k (motor work and fab work will be done by a shop that I have yet to decide on). I would like to roll around on 6lbs and be able to switch maps on the fly for the hit. I'd hate to give up the Ability to cruise around occasionally but my primary concern building something fast enough to win but reliable enough to ride to and from the hit. (As well as run wot for a reasonable distance when necessary. )

Sorry for being long winded, spazonazx I'd appreciate input about longevity of internals. You're making some really impressive numbers!

 

[thundercoupe9]

It's possible, spaz already told you what it takes, $15k is more than enough to get it done.

 

[Doped2ndgen]

It'sj possible, spaz already told you what it takes, $15k is more than enough to get it done.

I understand that, however from what I gathered from his thread it's built for a completely different purpose & from what it sounds like it doesn't see any street time. Considering I'm not the one building the motor, a rebuild will be much more costly so I was hoping to find out about longevity of the motor at high psi. I couldn't find anything other than posts about how a trailer queen lasted with their 300 tire and a turbo at 6 lbs. I've heard stories of drag guys tearing down motors every other weekend. Maybe it's bullshit? Don't care much about the strip so I wouldn't know. My build was fairly modest at 240 whp with a dry kit and I am new to turbos entirely.

 

[thundercoupe9]

I understand that, however from what I gathered from his thread it's built for a completely different purpose & from what it sounds like it doesn't see any street time. Considering I'm not the one building the motor, a rebuild will be much more costly so I was hoping to find out about longevity of the motor at high psi. I couldn't find anything other than posts about how a trailer queen lasted with their 300 tire and a turbo at 6 lbs. I've heard stories of drag guys tearing down motors every other weekend. Maybe it's bullshit? Don't care much about the strip so I wouldn't know. My build was fairly modest at 240 whp with a dry kit and I am new to turbos entirely.

Unfortunately i couldn't tell you how long the engine would last, in 13 years of production there has only been few people that turbocharged zx10r, the rest been playing with power commanders/ecu flashes/and air filters :crackup:, but you already know this if you tried looking for info.

 

[bike]

My 07 is has been turboed for about a year. It is ridden most days of the week. Up until about two weeks ago it was running 5.5lbs of boost and was making around 220hp at the wheels. All stock internals. Been to the circuit a few times. Last time was at 8lbs of boost. Has not blown up yet.

I am at the limit I feel comfortable without a custom intercooler or water injection. You will most likely need one of these if you want a streetable 300+ bhp. There is not a lot of room so an intercooler, so will probably need an air/water plenum which cost a fair amount of money.

In my opinion, you have to weigh up your power goals to your streetability. I don't see how you could get 350 bhp without lowering your compression and that is going to make it a bit more sluggish off boost. You might be able to do it with E85 but who knows how the stock engine will go.

Have you ridden a 250bhp bike? They really are a handful. My bike was power wheeling down the straight the other day at 240kph. A 350bhp bike would probably be a lot more fun but it will be a lot more work and money. A much easier path would be just to buy a Hayabusa or ZX14. Lots of proven off the shelf components.

 

[SpazOnaZX]

Ha Ha! I love this stuff! You're in for a lot of fun and surprises. I too am quite wordy, so here it goes:

First and foremost, my bike is still a streetbike. Pump gas and street tuning.... it's never been on a stationary dyno since the turbo went on it. I don't ride it every day anymore, but that's because I have something with bags for commuting... and every day commuting on a turbo 10R is really not fun. You'd think it would be a riot, and it is from time to time, but accessing that kind of performance takes a lot of empty straight road if you want to survive. 'Nuff said on that.

Reliable is all about the parts you use and how you maintenance them, along with how aggressive you tune it for a given fuel. Maintenance is key. Fuel systems WILL clog up and fail over time, this is just a fact. The more you ride it the faster this happens. On an NA bike this isn't to big a deal, it starts running like crap and you fix it. On a turbo bike it still runs great, and then it promptly melts the rings into the pistons. With advanced electronics you can mitigate a lot of that 'Surprise!' factor; AFR failsafes, fuel pressure failsafes, knock control, meticulous attention to datalogging, etc. If you plan on having someone else do all your building/tuning, though, THAT part will get really expensive, really quick. In reality you're looking in more money/time in management then you are in actual hard parts if you want reliability....it's not for the faint of heart.

Enough gloom and doom.... If you want something that will stomp 1000hp cars 15psi will get you there. Problem is you will need a lot of chassis work to keep it on the ground. Even with 19/39 gearing I can't get on to wastegate pressure (7psi) in first gear, and 2nd is sketchy. I ramp boost based on mph, and the thing doesn't settle down until about 185mph. I thought I could be a short wheelbase hero when I started all this nonsense... and I was (and still am) completely unprepared for how hard it is to ride like that. Put some arm to it, and definitely work on suspension before you try to throw more than 10 psi at the thing.... more power will just make you slower until you do.

Don't go too low on the static compression if it is going to live on the street. Good rods (crower or carrillo), pistons coatings, upgraded valves/retainers/springs will go a long way. If you get it to hook up at higher boost levels you'll probably want to look into better clutch basket options. USE GOOD FUEL, and/or use water injection. If you want reliability, you have to have repeat-ability... switching fuels and tunes frequently will lead you to problems. If you use water injection, you need intelligent failsafes for that built in to your management. Gauges just don't cut it... they're good for spot checking, but you just can't focus on them when it's doing what it does at 14+ psi. You can't have too good of a fuel system.... If you're only going to use 4 injectors I would recommend Injector Dynamics.

If you were doing all the work yourself, 15K will get you there easy. If you're paying someone else for everything, that might be a tight budget for something reliable. Sure you can spend 4K-6K and have it up and running and kicking ass, but getting it to survive 100's of passes requires a lot more time and effort.

Fun stuff!

 

[SpazOnaZX]

With that being said I'm shooting for a "reliable" 300-350 whp street monster to run with high end cars from 60-100 up rolls. I've had much better luck in the past surprising people what can be done without a stretched swing arm so I believe I'll be better off ramping up my boost in a linear manner to keep thing "under control".

So my question is, is this even really possible to build and have the motor last any length of time? I realize na applications are best but no chance of the power i want. I'm curious about longevity for my application. It seems like 20 lbs of boost is going to be the magic number according to spazonazx thread. My budget for the build is no more than 15k (motor work and fab work will be done by a shop that I have yet to decide on). I would like to roll around on 6lbs and be able to switch maps on the fly for the hit. I'd hate to give up the Ability to cruise around occasionally but my primary concern building something fast enough to win but reliable enough to ride to and from the hit. (As well as run wot for a reasonable distance when necessary. )

...to directly answer a question or two

60-100 is nonsense... that's stock bike territory and not even working a turbo bike. If you want to keep it under 140 I wouldn't recommend the turbo route for a streetbike. Now, if you want to build a grudge turbo bike that's a whole different story.

7Psi will be 50% more power... so depending on what dyno yoo believe that will be 225-250hp. That will be more than a swb bike can handle up to about 120mph. 15psi will get you to double stock power, and will make 140mph+ rolling power wheelies a reality. Fun, but not fast.

A well built and well managed motor can live a long time at 15 psi from my experience. I'm up to several years and hundreds and hundreds of passes. Your experience may vary.

Chassis wins races, power makes it fun to ride. You have to pick how far you want to go in which direction. There are plenty of NA bikes that would kick sand in my face in a quarter mile or the 60-120 race. Chassis would fix that in a heartbeat.

 

[Doped2ndgen]

My 07 is has been turboed for about a year. It is ridden most days of the week. Up until about two weeks ago it was running 5.5lbs of boost and was making around 220hp at the wheels. All stock internals. Been to the circuit a few times. Last time was at 8lbs of boost. Has not blown up yet.

I am at the limit I feel comfortable without a custom intercooler or water injection. You will most likely need one of these if you want a streetable 300+ bhp. There is not a lot of room so an intercooler, so will probably need an air/water plenum which cost a fair amount of money.

In my opinion, you have to weigh up your power goals to your streetability. I don't see how you could get 350 bhp without lowering your compression and that is going to make it a bit more sluggish off boost. You might be able to do it with E85 but who knows how the stock engine will go.

Have you ridden a 250bhp bike? They really are a handful. My bike was power wheeling down the straight the other day at 240kph. A 350bhp bike would probably be a lot more fun but it will be a lot more work and money. A much easier path would be just to buy a Hayabusa or ZX14. Lots of proven off the shelf components.

that is encouraging to know that its made it that far on stock internals that long. i know you said stock internals but are you running stock compression or a thicker head gasket to lower compression at all?

power is definitely the priority over streetablity. if it needs to trailered out there ill invest in an enclosed trailer as well but being able to ride to and from would definitely be preferable for the sake of emergencies. i care nothing about riding it on a daily basis just a couple dozen passes on the weekends. i just want to make sure its built to hold up for as long as possible. id considered being more conservative to begin with but i dont see a point in spending the money without doing it the way i want the first time and tweaking it where i need to. my 10 was pushing 240 and some change on a progressive controller & 2 stage system and eventually blew up with 100 shot because i only had shimmed my valves and replaced my rockers. so i am familiar with that kind of power, just not boost. (this was also swb). i realize a 14 or busa would be an easier route, but im more interested in building something different.

 

[SpazOnaZX]

Sounds like you have your head in the right place.

I ran a 100% stock motor @ 13 psi for a bit, but I had a fueling/water injection mistake that killed it. That was entirely my fault, and I firmly believe it would have lived for quite a while at that power level, so long as due diligence was done on maintenance, but that has more to due with water injection than anything else.

That being said, stock parts really aren't set up for that kind of abuse. You want a bit more spring pressure to offset the intake/exhaust pressure levels, and you want a valve that can handle the additional spring pressure (I have no idea what you mean by 'rockers' in your nitrous adventure, though, as this is a cam-on-bucket engine?). Ring gap is crucial in these sort of applications... I've found that stock ring gaps are actually pretty wide most of the time, but not checking it/setting it after a 40% power increase is asking for trouble. Taking the rods out warrants a replacement of the stock rod bolts, and replacing the rod bolts is a press-in affair... you'll want to check/resize the rods when you do that. At that point you are more than half-way to a set of Crower's, and that is some of the best insurance you can buy right there. Stock pistons are good, but crown & skirt coatings can go a long way for extra reliability... but who does that to stock pistons when a set of Wossner's is about 500 bucks? If you want to lower your static compression you WANT to do it with piston dish, NOT a headgasket. You loose squish/quench when you go the gasket route, and that actually hurts detonation resistance. I went with a lower comp piston and a thinner gasket to get the PTH clearance down as much as is reasonable. You pick up a minimal amount of compression, but you actually reduce octane requirement... it's free power if you do it right.

....it spirals out of hand pretty quick, eh? Honestly, I wouldn't bother if you kept it under 10psi, but over that it would be a gamble to run it on a stock engine. Biggest thing I would say is run good fuel. If you're willing to trailer it everywhere, run something like C16 (non-intercooled) or Q16 if you intercool/can afford it. These motors rarely fail from too much power, it's almost always a fuel related issue or poor clearance/matching on parts. A little more oil pressure/volume never hurt things either... shimming the relief valve can get you there easily. Don't forget head studs... and case studs too. Shit, still spiraling, isn't it?

 

[Doped2ndgen]

sorry, i probably should have been more clear, i mean Starting at 100 mph rolls pulling to 180 plus most of the time. (ive done 60 most of the time in the past when i had the 40 shot, probably shouldnt be considered with boost i guess. ignorant expectation on my part). most of the cars in my area are gtrs and built vettes. however id love to build something to run with a few of the cars around here pushing 1800 whp) plenty of wide open road here, just have to venture further in to south carolina.

you make a very good point about multiple maps being a poor option. i guess i will go further in the direction of something that will need to be on a trailer vs streetable but itd be nice to be confident ill make it home riding in a pinch. if thats the case i might as well run race gas, if i have to stop for gas im f***ed at that point anyway. i missed that in your thread that you were running pump gas :surprise: i was also under the impression reading your thread it was more dedicated to land speed racing as time went on, so forgive me for being wrong there.

im capable of alot of the fab work, and whats over my head can be done by someone else at work (i work in a fab shop). the motor is over my head, the extent of my knowledge there is some top end work. with the money im planning on i dont think its the ideal learning project :crackup:. pretty much everything else either i can do or can do with the help of some buddies. i also have a good friend at a race shop who works wonders with data logs and trouble shooting so im not overly concerned about that.

an arm is beginning to sound like a better idea, i guess im better off taking my ego out of that equation. this should have been posted yesterday, ive been having trouble with logging in. keeps requesting for a password reset..

 

[SpazOnaZX]

Yea, land speed was always a pipe dream, it just fell into my lap this year and I'm running with it. I'm learning the hard way that what works on the 'street' isn't what works in competition. You can be mediocre at both, or good at one... take your pick... but that unicorn build that works for every venue just doesn't exist. But before land speed happened I wanted something like what you're after... the low-key freeway pimp that you could ride to work or just take out friday night with no prep.

If you can do the fab work & tuning, you're 90% ahead of the game. Motor building is fairly simple, and there are a lot of shops out there that can get it done if you can't on your own... but any high performance motor builder will know the little tricks. There are quite a few folks on the east coast that can put together a strong motor for sure. With that said, you have to tune a little different for land speed/top speed then you do for drag racing, especially off the pavement... intercooling and heat management become much more important. But it is really a simple motor in the end, and good parts installed properly will make it work... at least up to about 400hp or so in this case. The easy blueprint is Pistons/Rods/Valves/Springs/Retainers/Clutch basket... put the best of those in there and the rest is just tuning/electronics. That's about 2K-2.K in parts there, and you can put it together in a shed with a service manual if you have the right tools. You can go crazy with porting/cams/throttle bodies/blahblahblah, but a well-built turbo set-up can almost always make up the difference without much effort.

Nothing wrong with a little ego... that gets you into the learning stage real quick. You can still do a lot with minimal amounts of arm & ballast, it is just a lot harder than you would think. In the end, everyone I've ever talked to, including myself, wishes they would have spent that time perfecting a set-up that worked better out of the box, rather than trying over and over to get a set-up not designed for that type of racing to work.... it's just less headache. At the end of the night no one really cares how long your bike is... all they care about is who was out front.

You don't have to go the arm route right away, but just keep in mind that you're probably going to need it to play with the big boys, and you're going to have to re-tune all your boost curves once you change the chassis. You can do the work twice for the experience & there is nothing wrong with that, but if you are in a hurry or have limited funds/time it's just best to start with the finished product. Just my opinion, of course.

 

[moshpete]

a well-built turbo set-up can almost always make up the difference without much effort.
)

@spaz your bike from like 5 years ago was part of the reason i bought Dsabats old setup! i havent been here in 3 years good to see heavy hitters like yourself are still here sharing knowledge.

 

[Doped2ndgen]

Yea, land speed was always a pipe dream, it just fell into my lap this year and I'm running with it. I'm learning the hard way that what works on the 'street' isn't what works in competition. You can be mediocre at both, or good at one... take your pick... but that unicorn build that works for every venue just doesn't exist. But before land speed happened I wanted something like what you're after... the low-key freeway pimp that you could ride to work or just take out friday night with no prep.

If you can do the fab work & tuning, you're 90% ahead of the game. Motor building is fairly simple, and there are a lot of shops out there that can get it done if you can't on your own... but any high performance motor builder will know the little tricks. There are quite a few folks on the east coast that can put together a strong motor for sure. With that said, you have to tune a little different for land speed/top speed then you do for drag racing, especially off the pavement... intercooling and heat management become much more important. But it is really a simple motor in the end, and good parts installed properly will make it work... at least up to about 400hp or so in this case. The easy blueprint is Pistons/Rods/Valves/Springs/Retainers/Clutch basket... put the best of those in there and the rest is just tuning/electronics. That's about 2K-2.K in parts there, and you can put it together in a shed with a service manual if you have the right tools. You can go crazy with porting/cams/throttle bodies/blahblahblah, but a well-built turbo set-up can almost always make up the difference without much effort.

Nothing wrong with a little ego... that gets you into the learning stage real quick. You can still do a lot with minimal amounts of arm & ballast, it is just a lot harder than you would think. In the end, everyone I've ever talked to, including myself, wishes they would have spent that time perfecting a set-up that worked better out of the box, rather than trying over and over to get a set-up not designed for that type of racing to work.... it's just less headache. At the end of the night no one really cares how long your bike is... all they care about is who was out front.

You don't have to go the arm route right away, but just keep in mind that you're probably going to need it to play with the big boys, and you're going to have to re-tune all your boost curves once you change the chassis. You can do the work twice for the experience & there is nothing wrong with that, but if you are in a hurry or have limited funds/time it's just best to start with the finished product. Just my opinion, of course.

Absolutely, I'll probably go with a 4-6 over arm & straps from the beginning to make things a little more manageable. I already have lead in The front axle. If I'm not mistaken you went with a 63 mm from precision turbo? Any particular reasoning behind that other than hp threshold?

Was scrolling through your thread and couldn't find it. I'd like to start ordering parts in the next few weeks or so (selling my Silverado ss among other things I don't drive for some more funds as well). I appreciate all the guidance.

Would you say to build the motor for the turbo or pick the turbo based on the motor or build the motor based on the desired turbo? (If that makes sense) seems like the most sensible starting point and work my way to fueling later.. though that's probably just a dream to work out being that simple

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[thundercoupe9]

You have to select your wheel base depending on the center mass location, coefficient of friction between the tire and surface, and the amount of torque that transmission is transferring to the tire. If the wb is too short, you will have no problems getting traction, but your front wheel will be up in the air..........not good. If the wb is too long, your front wheel will stay down........but your tire will spin. Both of those examples aren't good.

You have to build the engine to hold the power that you want, you also have to select correct turbocharger that can supply enough cfm to support that power. Your engine and turbo will also depend on the fuel that you're planning to run.
You can build 2 350hp bikes........1 is going to be a fun street bike and the other is going to be a slug.

Like Spaz said, you can build a fast track bike that won't live on the street.......or you can build a fast street bike that will be a slow track bike.

 

[C3L1CA]

Sounds like a badass build! Be fun to see the results of the build.

Just an fyi but my gen 4 with some stupid drag gearing that tops out at 165ish that has basic bolt ons and a flash could keep up and beat some 1khp cars depending on the driver. Turbo is way cooler than a N/A bike but if you're just shooting for beating some 1k hp you could pick up a gen 4, do some headwork and some mr12 and get out on 1k cars for sure and have 2 zx10s lol.

 

[SpazOnaZX]

Exactly what TC said. You can't really overbuild a motor, so go as far in that direction as you can. The above mentioned mods should give you a motor that is capable of 400+ hp if you tune it correctly.... though I can't speculate on how long the transmission will live over that power level. IIRC, Dsabat starting breaking output shafts in the 420+ range.

You pick a turbo based on how much horsepower you want, and WHERE in the RPM band you want it. You can definitely get that one too big or too small... but you have to consider both the compressor side of the turbo and the turbine (exhaust) side.... the compressor is the benchmark for your peak power and efficiency, but the turbine side is going to dictate where the bike makes power and how long it can carry said power before choking up. I'm a fan of Garrett turbos, as you get every bit of information you need right from their catalog and you have a HUGE choice in housings/wheels on both ends of the turbo. I'm actually using an old school turbo on mine.... it's a GT2860RS with a larger .86 A/R turbine housing. The larger turbine housing moves peak torque (and boost threshold) further up in the RPM band, making it a little less street friendly (7K-ish boost threshold at my high altitude in the lower gears). That compressor can support 300ish wheel HP without a problem, maybe more. If I wanted to get into the 400 range safely, Garrett makes an upgraded 'X' compressor wheel in the same frame that could get me there.

Turbo choice and sizing is always a compromise. If you want towering HP and peak #'s, you have to give up down low performance. If you want a fun, responsive street motor you have to size down and give up some of those peak numbers. With that said, midrange power is a lot more important than the internet will lead you to believe.

 

[SpazOnaZX]

@spaz your bike from like 5 years ago was part of the reason i bought Dsabats old setup! i havent been here in 3 years good to see heavy hitters like yourself are still here sharing knowledge.

Wassup man! How did his set-up treat you? That was a damn fast bike. I actually bumped into Dean out at El Mirage... quite a nice fellow. I wouldn't call myself a heavy hitter by any stretch, but I'm trying to get there someday.

 

[Doped2ndgen]

Sounds like a badass build! Be fun to see the results of the build.

Just an fyi but my gen 4 with some stupid drag gearing that tops out at 165ish that has basic bolt ons and a flash could keep up and beat some 1khp cars depending on the driver. Turbo is way cooler than a N/A bike but if you're just shooting for beating some 1k hp you could pick up a gen 4, do some headwork and some mr12 and get out on 1k cars for sure and have 2 zx10s lol.

I was. Ack and forth on this for a while. I already have a garage full of 2nd gen parts. My biggest deal breaker would be buying another bike and still having to dump more money into this one... why not spend the money on this one and have a one off death missile with 0 miles on it that can't be bought

Just a little update, motor is out; now I'm trying to make a decision on where to take it. Work is picking back after the first of the year so it'll be a little while before I can do much more on it. Took an old set of headers I cracked at the track to cut up and play with if I have down time at work (I can dream, right?)

Still doing some homework on turbos. Looking at the gt2871r / 76 trim .72 AR that's rated for 280-475hp which from my limited understanding this far would give me some wiggle room power wise as well as decent mid range/top end

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[Doped2ndgen]

You have to select your wheel base depending on the center mass location, coefficient of friction between the tire and surface, and the amount of torque that transmission is transferring to the tire. If the wb is too short, you will have no problems getting traction, but your front wheel will be up in the air..........not good. If the wb is too long, your front wheel will stay down........but your tire will spin. Both of those examples aren't good.

You have to build the engine to hold the power that you want, you also have to select correct turbocharger that can supply enough cfm to support that power. Your engine and turbo will also depend on the fuel that you're planning to run.
You can build 2 350hp bikes........1 is going to be a fun street bike and the other is going to be a slug.

Like Spaz said, you can build a fast track bike that won't live on the street.......or you can build a fast street bike that will be a slow track bike.

Interesting point. I've been looking at the formula/ method to finding this, it's never been something I've put much thought into short of straps and as much ballast on the front end as possible for swb. If/when I buy arm this will definitely be a priority. Power is no good if it doesn't make it to tthe ground.

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[SpazOnaZX]

Still doing some homework on turbos. Looking at the gt2871r / 76 trim .72 AR that's rated for 280-475hp which from my limited understanding this far would give me some wiggle room power wise as well as decent mid range/top end

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That's a sensible choice for a turbo that is biased for high-rpm performance in a 1K streetbike.... they are rather plentiful and (relatively) inexpensive to boot. It will be a bit of a late spooler on a reduced compression motor... I'd guess in the 7-8K range in first gear depending on how well it's built. The threshold will come down a bit as you get more load in it (IE more speed). >