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Discussion Starter #1
I did quite a bit of lurking around over @ Psychobike and got some good info... but some ZX10R specific experience would be great. Some experience from a guy who's first answer isn't, "Run Q16 race gas first!" would be awesome too. :thumbsup:

Who has any good starting points for ignition tuning Vs. boost for the ZX10R engines? I know that there are a lot of factors to consider (fuel, AFR, total boost, static CR, and so on), but I'm more interested in what you can get away with on the stock motor on pump gas.

For example: 91 pump gas, stock motor (2nd/3rd gen) 5psi.... how much timing would you pull & where? Same set-up, but 10psi? Nitrous follows pretty standard rules (X amount of timing per X amount of HP)... but forced induction seems to be a little less black & white.

...I've touched 10psi a few times now, but I have quite a lot of timing out at the moment and a bit of water/meth as a back-up. Still, I saw 8psi on my C14 regularly and I didn't touch timing at all on that one. Granted, as soon as the fuel pump started to give up it immediately lunched pistons. Trying to avoid that. That bike was muuuuch hevier, but had quite a bit lower static CR.

Sooo.... who knows what? :)
 

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Spaz; What did you do with the Turbo C14? Did you sell it? I've always wanted to turbo mine. I'm still thinking about it, but I would hate to hurt the reliability of what has so far been an indestructible bike. Thanks. Mike.
 

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Subbed for info too. Gonna be useful at some point.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
Still have the Connie; the turbo is sitting on my workbench waiting to go back on. I need funds for a real pump/regulator and to put a water/meth system on it. It's my daily while I'm working on the ZX10 and my car. It can be turbo'ed reliably.... it just takes thought, restraint, and good parts. Well, 2 out of 3 of those, anyway.

Back on track: anyone with some knowledge here they're willing to share?
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Ok... I'll start.

I know from looking at factory maps and tuning a bit myself that most engines need the largest amount of retard at peak cylinder pressure... which can typically be found at the peak torque level of the engine. Many forced induction motors pull very little timing out at low load, be that at low or high rpm. They see the most timing retard at high load in the low and midrange area, with timing actually becoming more advanced at higher RPM at the same load level. The cetrifugal charger in my case creates a neat situation: it makes boost in a linear manner, making peak torque pretty much the same from 7K rpm to redline.

I also feel that the bike stock has a lot timing left in it... probably 3-5 degrees. I have the nagging feeling that I can run 10psi peak (about 6psi from 7K up) with almost no additional retard, maybe a degree or two at the most on pump gas. With water/meth on top of that I should have a good margin of error. Some of those looneys that run lots of boost on the better fuels don't even start retarding ignition till it gets in the high teen's for boost numbers. I'm on pump gas, but water/meth does magical shit to fuel.

Thoughts/observations?
 

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well, for reverse observation....put this in the melting pot and take with what you will.

stock motor, 87 Octane, +4 degrees of timing, perfect 12.8-9 A/F.......... top gear pull for say 2-3 min.....melts the rings to the pistons, and warps the block and head.

I know it's going the other way, but it has relevance.

I know the rule of thumb is pull 2 degrees for every 40-50HP increase of NOS.....so i'd apply that to power production also.........based on pump gas.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
I've heard the nitrous rule of thumb, but a lot of guys observe that nitrous is a lot more violent, and that the combustion even is accelerated so much by N20 that the aggressive timing changes are needed. Guys running +200hp with boost vs +200hp with nitrous are running much more aggressive timing. They actually observe that too much retard on a boosted bike kills power and increases EGT's dramatically... also melting pistons long before they detonate.

I'm not surprised that a 2-3 minute pull would melt a motor like that. That's a terrible amount of heat generation, and I don't think a stock or mildly upgraded cooling system could handle that. Considering the speed and distance this (or any) bike making this much HP would cover, I'd never run it wide open for more than 20-30 seconds.

But using the calcs for nitrous would be a good starting point, I agree. But I know there's more on the table here somewhere. :)
 

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Seems to me that the timing was my problem, the programmer tried to gain more hp or torque and retarded the timing through the ecu and on the track melted the pistons... New question: - Will I be able to run properly stock rods and low pistons and better the performance or would I be needing more than 10psi to feel the power. I AM NOT GOING TO RUN MORE THAN 10PSI, NO MATTER WHAT
- Would giving a degree to the cams(stock ones) help me compensate compression or would I be getting more compression under boost and the rods will go pass their ironcraft and bend?

I am just trying to lower the compression but not kill the engine too much so that the bike will need more boost and there we go in more expenses
 

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spaz has made good points and best qualified from actual experience to answer ur questions. me, turbos suffer incorrect input no less than nitrous, just a few seconds difference insame results. 10 psi on street on pump, no intercooler, no injection, everything heated up, inlet air temps will readily promote detonation. lowering compression, turbo or nitrous just kills torque/response. 10psi is 10psi, no need to alter cam timing. higher compression low/moderate boost is street fast and all u can handle. good luck with 10psi on pump, hell of a process getting there. so my best friend hauls off and buys a new cycle logics turbo kit for his stk. zx14 that prev owner has melted down 2 motors on the dyno trying to tune the kit for cheap. kit known for this. small diameter head pipes, boosts early, high iats, lots of boost creep. i installed, lots of work/hrs getting this kit DOWN to 8 psi after creep.. stk compression motor. walbro pump, inj's cleaned/flowed, rising rate regulator. pulled 6 degrees timing everywhere as it boosts before 3k and tuned it on 93 pump.stk 310cc inj's maxed out at 9500 rpm. afr 12.6, result, 255hp/164ft lb torque at 6k, 292/190 at 9500. bike is stupid/insane fast. warp drive with just slight touch wrist in any gear. we dont take it above 9k, no need. even added some gear. 2 years, 4k miles, not a single glitch.only plans are to get boost even lower at about 6, it is too much power/instanous response as is. keep boost down/keep it simple. he also understands this turbos limitations and how to ride this bike for it to live and that's a key factor, full 8psi/wot is seldom used as
it just overpowers the road. hat's all i know, but it has worked very well.
 

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Discussion Starter #10 (Edited)
Man, it's amazing what a few years of research (breaking shit) has taught me!

Gaz is on point, as always. My 10psi on pump gas, stock compression, no intercooling/water meth was really only doable with the supercharger. Many different things are going on there, as you don't have that peak boost (cylinder pressure) value at peak VE (NA peak torque) or anywhere near the backpressure/high EGT's.... you can get away with a lot more timing/boost on pump fuel compared to a turbo/N20. Once you put a snail in the exhaust there ARE SO MANY MORE THINGS that go into the equation of making a good strong motor that is reliable for a given fuel. Everyone gets wrapped up in compressor sizing, but what's going on on the turbine side is just as important, if not more. Header design and turbine size/AR are going to determine how much backpressure you have ant any given flow... and with people running extra fat mixtures to be "safe" on a turbo set up you end up with pretty high EGTs.... backpressure puts that 1000+ degree exhaust heat back into the cylinder and causes uncontrolled combustion....so people pull timing and throw more fuel at it (which creates higher EGTs...). At some point the dog catches its own tail and bites down. Long story short: you have to have well matched parts in the entire system to get the sort of professional results we all see from happy dynos & message boards across the land

And as far as timing & turbos go, I'll update with a little more I've picked up: You need good fuel. Assuming your hardware is A+, you have to have good fuel (or some sort of water injection) to take advantage of timing. There will be a magic number 'plateau' for ignition timing ( +/- a degree or two) that makes the best power, but I promise that you will not be able to get it there on pump gas.... that really applies for any boost level above a couple PSI. Knowing that, it takes a lot of effort & equipment to properly develop timing maps beyond what the OEM offers. If you're not logging knock, EGT, IAT, and AFR at the same time (dyno or track), you're really just guessing. Some people are really good at 'guessing'. Some wizards can still read plugs instead of looking at knock, but I'll be damned if I'm taking my plugs out that often on my set-up.

I don't like giving numbers to people anymore, as you can't just say to someone "pull X degrees per psi" quite like you can with nitrous or other mods.... the turbo set-up causes a lot of variables that you really have be 'Hands On' to predict. And someone telling me "I use X turbo on so-and-so's stage 3.5 kit" really doesn't tell me dick about backpressure ratios, EGT's, IAT's, etc. Honestly, unless you've previously worked with a production copy of EXACTLY what another guy is trying to set-up, I feel the best advice I can give is: "Get ye to a dyno with an experienced forced induction tuner at the controls.". If you don't like that answer, then start reading every damn book about engines, turbos, timing, fuels that you can find.... and prepare your wallet for a beating; it's going to be a long, hard, expensive, and wonderful road to knowledge.

Funny that you mention Cycle Logic, because a have a few melted pistons on a C14 using that guy's parts when I first started out.... but before the fuel system parts started failing that bike was a real animal... any 880lb amateur rider/bike combo that goes 9's with saddle bags at stock height with a shaft drive and 40psi of air in the tires is a good time. Mine lasted a bit longer than most (about 10K miles with nothing more than scavenge pump problems), but I used my own header/turbo choice. The garbage ass fuel system killed it in the end.
 

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Discussion Starter #11 (Edited)
.only plans are to get boost even lower at about 6, it is too much power/instanous response as is. keep boost down/keep it simple. he also understands this turbos limitations and how to ride this bike for it to live and that's a key factor, full 8psi/wot is seldom used as
it just overpowers the road. hat's all i know, but it has worked very well.
FWIW, on my C14 a GT2860RS with the .86 a/r turbine would be at full boost threshold at about 5.5K rpm, and making positive pressure from 3K 'till then.... and that motor was missing about 2 points of compression compared to the ZX14.... that motor REALLY likes that turbo, and the new Gen II Garrett GTX wheels for that compressor can make nearly 50lb/min of air!! Insanity!!!

All that grunt out of the open class motors is just on another world compared to the 1K bikes, even if they are making less peak power.
 

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all well said, especially on fuel required. this turbo far from optimium performance. we know that's a whole new process from where it sits now and $$$. not a racer, just wanted to turbo his street 14. as u covered, fortunate to have same tuner that tuned dsbats 430 hp zx10 lsr bike to tune. bike is well tuned in specified rpm range, but he never pushes the bike. bike is perfectley painted all black, all chrome, slammed with modified oil pan, 6 in. stretch, with dual ex/wastegate dump pipes. damn georgous one of street bike tastefully done. he keeps it immaculate. draws a lot of attention. as is, it is everything he wanted and more. silky smooth, unreal thrust at a touch of the throttle and frightening accleration without going wot. he leaves this bike at my house for me to ride at times. i love this bike,damnest thing ive ever rode on the street. he is also the only one allowed to take my ten and ride. we trust each other. most big bike turbo owners will tell u not to go over 220-230 hp on the street, probably about what we use keeping the bike hooked up on the road. sometimes less is more holds true. this customer build came out spot on, has a lot of fun riding/owning this total makeover, what really matters. biggest threat to this combo and many turbos is rider ego, not gonna happen with him tho. hp/torque turbos make is just unreal compared to anything normally aspirated.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
Seems to me that the timing was my problem, the programmer tried to gain more hp or torque and retarded the timing through the ecu and on the track melted the pistons... New question: - Will I be able to run properly stock rods and low pistons and better the performance or would I be needing more than 10psi to feel the power. I AM NOT GOING TO RUN MORE THAN 10PSI, NO MATTER WHAT
- Would giving a degree to the cams(stock ones) help me compensate compression or would I be getting more compression under boost and the rods will go pass their ironcraft and bend?

I am just trying to lower the compression but not kill the engine too much so that the bike will need more boost and there we go in more expenses
I got a little carried away there and missed these questions.

First, stock rods are good for pretty decent power, certainly good enough for a good combo at 10psi... provided you have fresh rod bolts and the big ends are machined properly. Rods generally fail from outside causes, such as poor hardware, knock, or oiling issues... not outright power.

Second, stock cam timing is fine. The thing is going to make so much power that I personally wouldn't feel the need. Perhaps if you were competing in an event where you NEEDED that exta few % I would think about it, but it's honestly just one more thing you can muck up. The stock cams/timing are a good compromise for street riding.

Last, static compression is trickier. At the end of the day, cylinder pressure = power. If you lower the compression you have to raise boost to make the same power, but you have an engine that is easier (safer or more tolerant) to tune. You also lose a lot of 'off-boost' performance, which makes street riding more of a chore. conversely, high static compression and lower boost (for an equal peak HP goal) will actually give you a motor with more area under the curve and better off boost power. This WILL make you faster and be more enjoyable to ride around daily. BUT, you have a narrow window to tune in and a more narrow margin of error for fuel choice and maintenance. I prefer the later approach, but if you don't have a great tuner or a lot of knowledge under your belt (or you're just don't need bleeding edge performance) a lower base CR motor is a better choice for you. That said, tighten up you quench/squish area in the head and you can have a little of your cake and eat it too.

....pretty much everything GAZ said, just really long winded. :badteeth:
 

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Discussion Starter #14
... so my best friend hauls off and buys a new cycle logics turbo kit for his stk. ... walbro pump, inj's cleaned/flowed, rising rate regulator.
Just as a warning: did you put that Walbaro in or was it a Cycle Logic piece? Before I knew what I was doing I bought the whole fuel system from that guy, and I never looked closely at that pump. It turned out that it was a stock mitsubishi gallant pump with a screw epoxied into the overpressure valve, and the stock regulator filled with exoxy (even though I paid for a Walbaro 255). Combined with his high rate fuel pressure regulator it eventually started killing the pump... and then pistons. I'm surprised it didn't melt the stock fuel pump harness too as that pump was drawing close to 15 amps at 90psi. Those high rising rates actually work, but fuck me do they open the door to a lot of problems down the road.... a 1:1 and some ID 715's are a better way to go. I know that's about 600 bucks, but that's cheaper than one set of Wossners. :)
 

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had already purchased new 255lph walbro and sent inj's off for cleaning/flowing while he's deciding which way to go. really wanted turbo, but more$$$. cl turbo popped up cheap and he bought it new with only dynotime. same deal,noticed fuel pump and put new walbro in place. think our fuel pressure was set at 60lb. as installed would boost 13-14 lbs after creep and these guys telling me should be 3-4. purchased thier adjustable wastegate fix from them, same results. ported the external wg with little drop in boost, hogged it out with little sucess. added external wastegate with lowest 3-4lb spring and ended up with 6 creeping to 8 lb boost. lots of hours and fab and $$$ just getting here. advertised as lo boost application-NOT. we've learned to regulate boost mostley with our wrist and the thing just flies effortlessley even on low boost.i need to correct fuel during tuning, was a mixture of c14/93. he eventually left out the c14, we ck'd plugs few times after some boost applied short runs, and has run as described on pump last 3k+ miles using moderation. was talking to sme turbo guys running real street at last race, they claim 4:1 rising rate regulator necessary in thier case. sorry, not trying to hijack this thread. just saying for the turbo inexperienced as myself, applied moderation, build and rider, goes a long way.
 

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Spazx, what you are saying is that I could make the same or close hp gains with the low comp. Pistons @10psi vs the standard piston @ 10 psi, The difference would be the "off boost" riding loss and the engine life/ maintenance?
 

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Spazx, what you are saying is that I could make the same or close hp gains with the low comp. Pistons @10psi vs the standard piston @ 10 psi, The difference would be the "off boost" riding loss and the engine life/ maintenance?
Low compression engine will need more boost to make the same power as high compression engine with less boost.

High compression engine will have better off boost regardless of how much boost you're running.

Low compression engine will make more peak power than higher compression engine if you're limited to pump gas since you'll be able to run higher boost pressures before the engine reaches preignition.
 

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Discussion Starter #18
Pretty much what he said... but I feel that you can make the same (or very close to) peak power with given fuel either way, it's just a lot harder/more dangerous starting with a high static CR; you have very, very small margin for error. I also have a feeling that you can't run a higher static CR motor quite as hard for as long for a given low-grade fuel though.... but that's more of a hypothesis than fact from my observations. Those problems mostly go away when you use water injection and/or a better fuel.

We're kind of ignoring Dynamic Compression here too, which is mostly dependent on cam timing. I suggested leaving the stock cam timing alone for this reason, but it's worth mentioning. Any time you change camshaft events/profiles (to include ports and intakes), you can alter dynamic CR. It gets really crazy, but it's worth mentioning that static CR is not the only player in the ball game here. All of these little factors play in, and this is why it's best to dial each combination in individually if you want to get the best performance and longevity.
 

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It's all play together, timing, air temp, coolant temp, static and dynamic compression, fuel, combustion chamber efficiency................................and many other things.

Still a heck of a lot easier to make more power than you know what to do with on a turbo set up than n/a.
 

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So leaving the stock timing on the cams, you are saying that the stock engine, ported head, low pistons, oil and fuel upgrades @10 psi, I can make this bike make power equally to the last set up, which was stock internals, only ported head and heavy duty springs and fuel upgrades? I want close to the last hp numbers, but need more torque, and want this engine to last, not eternally but considerable time. I have been building a bike that does not last 4 passes on the track, last time all the time gathering info and parts for only 3 passes. That hurt..... A LOT
 
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