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Discussion Starter #1
I know this topic is frequent and many of you may be sick of it, but since my application is a little different, I hope it will spark some good suggestions, resulting in lower lap times. I need your help to beat some pesky Suzukis & Yamahas :).

The rules for my road racing formula car require stock internals, but I can change exhaust (a necessity to fit the chassis), intake, fuel pump, etc., and I can use "add-ons" (PC, TRE, GI-Pro, etc.).

I've read a lot of threads on ZX-10r.net - great info - but the race car application adds a few twists. For instance, I am not traction limited and I'm not concerned about low rpm drivability. I'm generally interested in full throttle HP/torque (because, if I'm not 100% throttle, then I already have sufficient HP for that part of the track).

I'm guessing that Power Commander III USB will be at the top of my list. I do expect to do some chassis dyno tuning, so maybe the Ignition Module will have potential. I assume I'll want a higher redline, but not positive.

I've been told that I will want a gear indicator, but I'm not convinced that's a necessity (I may change my mind after driving the car :).

Remember - the yard stick is lap times. How would you rate my options in terms of best bang for the buck?

Thanks very much in advance. I look forward to your responses.
 

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Speed Freak
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Well what about the kawi intake race cam :) If you go with a power commander which I highly suggest I would suggest you getting a data logger for tuning it. Chassis dynos are great but if you have a wide band 02 monitoring air fuel, tps, and rpm you can tune it all your self with a few runs..... save your self some money as well if you do decide to switch exhaust or anything else. are you running stock air box? maybe try something custom like individual pods or a better intake system like custom air box, larger volume and everything, hell if you have the space I would do it. hell you could always get kawi pistons....they might be 14.3:1 compression but they are kawi's hahahahah..


I know it has to be stock but you could always be a lil sneaky :-D
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Cheating is not an option. No joy in beating others that way. In fact, I *hope* to get a lot of satisfaction from outrunning others spending more with my $1200 ebay engine. :).

I hadn't thought much about the air box. Thanks for that suggestion. I've just been planning to run the stock plastic air box with K&N filter. I can force air into it, but it wouldn't be easy. That might be a wintertime project.

I guess I should also mention that I will only consider mods that will definitely have a noticeable improvement. This is a new class and we're having the first "national" championship at Road Atlanta later this year. Since I'm not going to have a lot of time, I want to do what's relatively easy as long as it's not too expensive or trouble. Hope that makes sense.

Here's a picture from this past weekend. Still lots to do but it runs and is starting to look like a whole car again.
 

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Get a wideband O2 sensor like the Innovate LM1. With an additional interface box it will log in addition to O2 data, tps, EGT, injector duty cycle, and I think it has a 2 axis accelerometer in it. You can download the data and play it back real time. It also has 2 programmable outputs so that if you have a regular data logger with external inputs you can plug the O2 data into it, which is what I do. Then you can adjust the powercommander based on the data you see.

Make an airbox as big as you can.

Degree the cams. You could probably get away with a thin head gasket since you have to run race gas you don't have to worry about increased compression. Are you running a 4 into 1 exhaust? How long are the primaries?
 

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Speed Freak
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damn that thing looks sick, i wish i could put one of those on the street lol....

the LM1 from innovate is a very cool box as well. Ive been using a WEGO II from daytona sensors....real nice and compact and it has a heads up display for air fuel and can log between 15 mins and 3 hours depending on quality. I highly suggest them they are awesome.

can you degree the cams at all? or can you run a kawi intake race cam? Would be nice to run maybe individual filter pods but not sure about the velocity stacks. But I think a larger air box would be real neat and I'm sure you can get real creative with a intake like an F1 car or something on top or something.

how much do those things cost to build or how much do they run?
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Cool.

I've got an AIM Mychron 3 XGLog. I've been thinking about putting bungs in my exhaust for O2 or EGT sensors but haven't had a chance to think about it in detail.

My header tubes are going to be around 30" long before they go into a 4 into 1 collector. I think they are longer than optimum, but packaging was a challenge. It started life as an S&S Header, built for Dwarf/Circle track cars. I've had to chop it up a lot to fit my chassis. I talked to their tech guy. At the time I wanted to run short tubes (~15") because it would have been easier to fab, but he said it would hurt lower end. He figured 27" was optimum. Primaries are 1.5", I think.

What's the problem with the stock air box? Too turbulent/cramped? Air flow have to make turns to sharp?

I wont be opening up the engine any time too soon. I have too much chassis work to do first.

What is involved in degreeing the cams?

Thanks very much for the ideas.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
how much do those things cost to build or how much do they run?
My car will be worth maybe $20,000 when I'm done. Hard to say. I started with a $12,000 car last year, whacked off the back half and have been working on it / improving it for too many months. I'm getting a lot of help, but doing most of the work myself to save money. For instance, I fab & tack weld stuff, then take it to my tig welder friend/sponsor. Big ticket items were dry sump system and differential (~$3,000).
 

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When my brother had his 10r dynod, he got at least 4 more hp just by removing the lid off the box. We don't run it that way, but we've known for a long time that a larger airbox would help.

You will most likely need to remove the motor from the chassis. If you can get a degree wheel on the timing side you might be ok. Do a search on cam degreeing for details, but its a no money required mod - well, other than some gaskets if you take the starter covers off to turn the crank.

Dwarf car guys live in a different world. Like you said, we care about top end Hp, so 30" is way too long. Shorter would be much better for you.

Race cams would be an illegal mod for this class. Also a race ecu would be verboten. I figure you could get away with the thin gasket but other than that its hands off the internals.

There are some DSRs that are under 15K. Almost all are motorcycle powered. Most popular is the GSXR.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
Great info. Thanks.

Removing the top cover of the air box and adding additional cool (maybe rammed) air into the top wouldn't be too difficult. Probably biggest task would be filtering that additional air, but sounds pretty doable. Thanks for the idea. 4 HP would be noticeable.

Degreeing the cams - I'll do a search in here for more info.

When I talked to the tech guy at S&S Headers, he knew I wanted power at the top of the RPM range. When I said I was considering short (16") primary tubes he said it would cost me horsepower (he didn't say how much). That's when I decided to wait until after the next bend to go from 4 tubes into the collector. I figured I'll be at lower RPMs some of the time, so better to have the header optimized for lower than for something past my redline.

If I had to choose between, say, 18" and 29" primary tube lengths, which would you choose?

There's a good chance I'll redo the header this winter, but I can't spend too much time on any one thing or I'll never get to the track. I know I'll have a few issues to work out, so I want to get them out of the way as soon as possible so I can tune the chassis and get the car up to speed.

You know, now that I'm sitting here typing (when I should head back into the garage :), seat time is probably going to help my lap times more than a HP or 2 ... :).


When my brother had his 10r dynod, he got at least 4 more hp just by removing the lid off the box. We don't run it that way, but we've known for a long time that a larger airbox would help.

You will most likely need to remove the motor from the chassis. If you can get a degree wheel on the timing side you might be ok. Do a search on cam degreeing for details, but its a no money required mod - well, other than some gaskets if you take the starter covers off to turn the crank.

Dwarf car guys live in a different world. Like you said, we care about top end Hp, so 30" is way too long. Shorter would be much better for you.

Race cams would be an illegal mod for this class. Also a race ecu would be verboten. I figure you could get away with the thin gasket but other than that its hands off the internals.

There are some DSRs that are under 15K. Almost all are motorcycle powered. Most popular is the GSXR.
 

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"You know, now that I'm sitting here typing (when I should head back into the garage :), seat time is probably going to help my lap times more than a HP or 2 ... :).
"
Always.

I'd chose the shorter length primaries. A few inches longer would be ok, but not 29.

And I'd work on the airbox before the headers.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Excellent.

Finishing the header has to come before any (optional) air box mods, because the only exhaust I have is 75% complete. But, the air box mod has definitely moved higher on my list of mods.
 

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Any more pictures? Did you paint it Lime Green?
 

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Any more pictures? Did you paint it Lime Green?
I'm afraid it will be a while (weeks) before I get to the body work. I'm anxious to have it looking sharp (definitely green), but I'm more anxious to get the mechanicals done.

Recent accomplishements: Throttle & shift cables, rear wing support. I had to add "anti-intrusion" bars to the suspension wishbones (they discourage suspension arms coming into the cockpit during a crash).

I'll post a picture as soon as I have something worth posting.
 

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You will find that most of the time you will be well above 8K in the rev range. I don't know where dwarf car guys run their motors but we have always run them very high. These motors rev up so fast that before you know it its time to shift again. Thats why I say that what the curve looks like down low is of little importance to us.
 

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I've been told that I will want a gear indicator, but I'm not convinced that's a necessity (I may change my mind after driving the car :).

Remember - the yard stick is lap times. How would you rate my options in terms of best bang for the buck?

Thanks very much in advance. I look forward to your responses.
As far as Gear Indicator the Acumen is too slow for your application. The GI pro is much better(.3sec delay) and has a TRE and I also make a Gear Indicator and just added myself a on-off switch that does the same thing as the GiPro ATRE... but my Gear Indicator has milli secs delay meaning when you hit the next gear BAM it shows it faster than your brain to detect any delay.

Also, would recommend the Autometer Pro-Cycle Analog Tach 19231. It needs a special wiring harness custom built and I posted it somewhere on this site but 10Rmotor and myself have done it and it will show your TRUE RPMs and also how much the stock Tach. is off by as much as over 1k before it hits the Rev. Limiter.

Good luck with the project. :thumbsup:
 

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Discussion Starter #18
Thanks.

Thanks.

My race car came with an AIM dash/logger, so I plan to use it for my tach. The only remaining thing I need to figure out with it is getting the tach signal from the Kaw engine. One of the AIM's features is programmable shift lights.

I think a GI Pro with TRE is in my future. I'll consider yours, too. I need to do a test day with the basics first, then I'll add goodies.

I'm altering my header so the primary tubes will be about 25".

Re: the Dwarf cars - I assumed they'd want to run the same high RPM's we do for the same reasons, but maybe they don't shift to take advantage of the curve because the tracks are too short?

The 2005 ZX10R has a built in rev limiter, right? When does it come in and can I bump against it regularly without hurting anything?
 

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Thanks.

My race car came with an AIM dash/logger, so I plan to use it for my tach. The only remaining thing I need to figure out with it is getting the tach signal from the Kaw engine. One of the AIM's features is programmable shift lights.

I think a GI Pro with TRE is in my future. I'll consider yours, too. I need to do a test day with the basics first, then I'll add goodies.

I'm altering my header so the primary tubes will be about 25".

Re: the Dwarf cars - I assumed they'd want to run the same high RPM's we do for the same reasons, but maybe they don't shift to take advantage of the curve because the tracks are too short?

The 2005 ZX10R has a built in rev limiter, right? When does it come in and can I bump against it regularly without hurting anything?
Try a search for the AIM dash as I'm sure this has been done. There is 2 ways to get a tach signal, the line coming from the ECU(to the Cluster) and tapping the stick coils I just don't remember what the AIM dash needs to work sorry. Also, you might consider the Autometer if you have the room to install as there is nothing that will give you better visibility and accuracy like the Autometer Pro-Cycle....and no problems bumping off the Rev. limiter from time to time but with the Pro-Cycle you will have less events like that compared to other tachs. :wink:
 

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You should be able to pick up from the ECU through the can line for the AIM system no problem , and you can disable the rev limiter quite simply in the harness , I am not at home currently, but when I get there, I will show you which pins to pull if you want to stretch the RPM's.
 
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