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Discussion Starter #1
so, the xbrr's aren't technically production bikes. there is a bunch of debate going on about the ama's leniant views and allowances as far as the buells are concerned.

buell melted down their crank case, and redid it completely (with the melted down crank case). so "technically" it's made from the same material.

now, the buell's motor has been modified in such a way that it does not fit in a stock frame.

to me, this bends the rules a bit too much.

what do yall think? for or against? and why?
 

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just wanted to see an American bike compete. Would have been nice if they had not screwed up two pit stops- towel and then tire and stand.

It is formula Extreme so who cares about rules.
Harley created many of the rules that later allowed Ducati to compete using bigger V-twins in classes dominated by smaller fours. So let them bend the rules again.

Remember Duhammel on a Harley vr1000? circa 94??
 

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ZX10Miami said:
just wanted to see an American bike compete. Would have been nice if they had not screwed up two pit stops- towel and then tire and stand.

It is formula Extreme so who cares about rules.
Harley created many of the rules that later allowed Ducati to compete using bigger V-twins in classes dominated by smaller fours. So let them bend the rules again.

Remember Duhammel on a Harley vr1000? circa 94??
Well actually, Ducati had more to due with the formulation of those rules. H-D tried to jump on Ducatis coat tails but couldn't hang on and were a continual embarrasment in spite of trying to hire the best riders around to push those pigs around the track. That 199? H-D looked like it was designed in 1968. And ran like it.

The AMA is trying to get H-D and their fans involved because they figure that it would be good for gate attendance. The Harleys in drag racing have created more interest and increased the draw for the bike drags. Of course they had to give the H-D's a 2 to 1 or greater displacement advantage to get them to compete. Hmmmm. Sounds familiar doesn't it?

Gixxer Vixxon, I think they have stretched to rules so far, in order for the Buell to compete that it makes the whole class a bit of a joke. Not a good thing, IMHO.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
i agree they're pushing things down the wrong alley.

i didn't know the duc's had their influence there. thanks for that :) however, i'm not sure how duc fit into formula xtreme. i don't recall them every competing in this series (though admittedly i just recently started following more than superbike, world, and motogp more closely)
i just think it's silly that they're stretching rules for certain manufacturers.

i also think that it's silly to allow a 1350cc oil cooled pushrod. to me, if hd wants to be competitive, invest in newer, better technology.

(and i still think it's hilarious that none of hte buells finished)
 

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I read that one of the main concerns is that the class also calls for modified "streetbikes", where the XBRR in it's own sales brochure is for "closed course use only".

Other than that, I'm all about seeing Harley getting involved. This is just the push they need toward getting a reality check and letting Buell develop a REAL engine (sidenote: should'a bought KTM when they had a chance). But on the other hand, like Zeta said, they are pushing it a bit too far. Imagine what Yami, Kawi, or whoever could do with their bikes if they decided to go the same path. That is, if the AMA allows it. So by bending the rules now, it may be good for Buell, but down the road, if others follow, it could only be bad.

Here is where I got my info if anybody else wants to look into it :wink:
AMA Road Racing Rulebook
Check page 21 in the book (should be 11 of 47 in PDF format) to see the rules for FX.
 

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Gixxer Vixxen said:
i also think that it's silly to allow a 1350cc oil cooled pushrod. to me, if hd wants to be competitive, invest in newer, better technology.

Thats like an oxymoron or something. Harley couldn't develop a modern bike no matter what they tried. Maybe they'll be running todays technology in 75 or 80 years like they are running 1930's tech today. Harleys are :pottytrai and they always will be. The idea that the AMA would even consider letting this bike race in a production class proves yet again that they will bend over backwards for Hardley at any time ( VR1000 was only sold in limited quantity in a country 1/2 way around the world! ) and that they have no buisness being a race sanctioning body. What little succes the AMA series have is in spite of the AMA not because of it.
 

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Gixxer Vixxen said:
i didn't know the duc's had their influence there. thanks for that :) however, i'm not sure how duc fit into formula xtreme.
My comment was in reference to the great H-D VR1000 being allowed in Superbike class when there was a 750cc limit for inline 4's. H-D didn't influence the rule makers in that case, Harley just wanted to follow Ducatis path to success. But they coudn't find the map.

As per FX, I didn't read the PDF of the AMA rules for the class yet, but I will. I know that V-twins (non-Harley V-twins) are given a displacement advantage in Supersport. I thought it was the same in FX. Ducati and any other real motorcycles can run 750 cc while the I-4's are limited to 600 cc. But Harleys are not a real V-twin and they need a lot more help.
 

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Yeah and the great HD VR1000 wasnt based on a production bike back then and the AMA let it race. Althought the rules said a 1000cc twin was legal..it also stated that the bike should be baised on an actual STREET bike. So why is everybody surprised that Buell is allowed to race the XBR. it just goes to show you that the AMA is clueless (and has been for sometime now) as to running and governing a racing series. They should stick to Politics..and lobbying. And get out of racing all together....


zeta xray said:
My comment was in reference to the great H-D VR1000 being allowed in Superbike class when there was a 750cc limit for inline 4's. H-D didn't influence the rule makers in that case, Harley just wanted to follow Ducatis path to success. But they coudn't find the map.

As per FX, I didn't read the PDF of the AMA rules for the class yet, but I will. I know that V-twins (non-Harley V-twins) are given a displacement advantage in Supersport. I thought it was the same in FX. Ducati and any other real motorcycles can run 750 cc while the I-4's are limited to 600 cc. But Harleys are not a real V-twin and they need a lot more help.
 

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If you ever want a laugh, check out www.badweatherbikers.com
They are Buell FREAKS!!! Erik is their GOD and Blake is the prophet. I own a Buell and like the bike for what it is, but I cant stomach the bullshit that they spew on that site.

In their eyes, McWilly is the second coming of Christ.
 

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If HD want to play. then play by the rules. I really don't care if ama wants more of Hd fans come to watch the race. It sound like nascrap to me. If you let one company to bend the rules. then let everyone else do it to. HD needs to build a new motor and bike and thats all to it. BTW, Had one cup to many of coffee this morning.
 

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zeta xray said:
Well actually, Ducati had more to due with the formulation of those rules. H-D tried to jump on Ducatis coat tails but couldn't hang on and were a continual embarrasment in spite of trying to hire the best riders around to push those pigs around the track. That 199? H-D looked like it was designed in 1968. And ran like it.
You sure about that?
I thought Ducati picked up on left over (and long unused) "Harley" rules, from when harley was still involved.
Then later Ducati revived and used those rules. I could be wrong, but that's how I thought it went.

After that Harley came back in with the VR1000. And Miguel DuHammel.
 

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If you want a good laugh about this issue, read the article in RRW this month. Funny how John Ulrich owns that rag and has recently been appointed to the AMA board, and RRW comes out in favor of the Buell. :rolleyes:

The hilarity continues as they point out that FX allows UNLIMITED modifications, therefore allowing Buell to melt down the stock engine cases, alter the alloy, and re-cast it into a whole different engine. Following that logic of unlimited modifications, couldn't they just add some wings to the friggin' thing and fly around the track?

What I loved most from that article, is that they state unlimited mods to an AIR-COOLED v-twin. Just beneath that paragraph, the specs are printed in detail, and it clearly says that it is an AIR/OIL COOLED v-twin. Stand back, RRW. I think I'm gonna :throwup:

I'm all for Harley/Buell getting back into the scene, but either change the rules or make them conform to the existing ones. Rules are rules.

Of course the best part is, even when they cheat, they still can't finish a race. What a POS.
 

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Sorry to step on toes, but if you read the PDF I posted, the rules do clearly say "Twin Cylinder air-cooled motorcycles: Engine modifications are unlimited". But, it also says "AMA Formula Xtreme motorcycles are based on production four stroke street motorcycles"
 

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rocketracermike said:
If HD want to play. then play by the rules. I really don't care if ama wants more of Hd fans come to watch the race. It sound like nascrap to me. If you let one company to bend the rules. then let everyone else do it to. HD needs to build a new motor and bike and thats all to it. BTW, Had one cup to many of coffee this morning.
:iamwithst good point
 

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I will not complain till they actually start winning races
Right now it is like a plow horse that had a bath and a grooming running against a Race horse
 

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Kickaho said:
Sorry to step on toes, but if you read the PDF I posted, the rules do clearly say "Twin Cylinder air-cooled motorcycles: Engine modifications are unlimited". But, it also says "AMA Formula Xtreme motorcycles are based on production four stroke street motorcycles"
XB12R - even though the marketing arm stated the XBRR is 'for closed course' only, the frame originated with the XB12R.

Now, as to the engine cases - am I the only person on the planet who thought they were kidding? I mean, I fully thought it was just sarcasm about melting down the cases - how would you determine if the metal in the new cases was the metal from the old cases? But if they are really melting down XB12R cases, the rules do state 'unlimited modifications'. So Buell found a loophole and exploited it - why is this a problem?

ZX10Miami said:
You sure about that?
I thought Ducati picked up on left over (and long unused) "Harley" rules, from when harley was still involved.
Then later Ducati revived and used those rules. I could be wrong, but that's how I thought it went.
I believe the rules were put in place neither for HD nor for Ducati but for any 'sporting twin' (BSA, Norton, Guzzi and Duc as well as HD though they could hardly be called sporting). Remember, most of the superbike rules came from the old Formula 1 rules which I think allowed for the larger displacement twins.

Up until the VR1000 (a far more blatant bending of the rules than the XBRR) HD was content to have the AMA change the rules in dirt track racing to force Honda out. It was the only play HD had back then as they were close to bankruptcy and didn't really have much weight to throw around.
 

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Bravo...well said. I see another person sees the VR as i see it. Again it just goes to show you how LONG the AMA has been screwing the pooch. Gotta give them one thing..the F up quite consitantly


lavudyar said:
Up until the VR1000 (a far more blatant bending of the rules than the XBRR) HD was content to have the AMA change the rules in dirt track racing to force Honda out. It was the only play HD had back then as they were close to bankruptcy and didn't really have much weight to throw around.
 

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Buell?:spit: :crackup: :thefinger :badteeth:
 
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