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Discussion Starter #1
Hey guys. I have been riding for years but only recently have I started to tinker with things on my own. So I just spent the last weekend tearing into the bike. Pulled the header and knocked out the cat, new slip on, replaced spark plugs, changed the oil, changed the air filter and added a power commander V. I have a map that someone gave me that matches up pretty close to what I have. My question is know about making sure I have it dialed in as best I can without a dyno. I live in the boonies and don't have access or really the money to dyno tune at this time. What are some things that I should be listening for and feeling for as I am riding to tell me if I am lean or rich? Any help with this would be great. Or even some other maps if this one is too far off.
 

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There is nothing we can tell you to accurately tune your bike unless you have access to the equipment to log your afr... you can sort of use a drag strip.. sort of after a million runs for wot only.
 

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Get a wideband 2 (or Autotune) and, if you budget stretches far enough, a pod 300.
Set your desired AFR. Ride around. Take some logs. Check and repeat.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
Great, thanks for the info guys. I will start pinching pennies then and just wing it until then.
 

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Your motor will run very hot if it's too lean, but you could check your tail pipe for colour. Grey /white is too lean, sooty black is too rich.
Your gas consumption is an indicator as well
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Your motor will run very hot if it's too lean, but you could check your tail pipe for colour. Grey /white is too lean, sooty black is too rich.
Your gas consumption is an indicator as well
Awesome! Thanks for the helpful reply.
 

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Your motor will run very hot if it's too lean, but you could check your tail pipe for colour. Grey /white is too lean, sooty black is too rich.
Your gas consumption is an indicator as well
I set my cruise afr at 15.5, my engine runs the same temps as 14.7 afr, not even close to overheating.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
Awesome! Thanks for the helpful reply.

Nothing of what this guy said will help you fine tune your bike. Both ends of that spectrum are extremes and in no way will that really tell you much other than youre ridiculously lean or rich.
I realise that the only way to really fine tune the bike would be a dyno or autotune or weiband. I guess what I was hoping for were some recommendations on if there was anything else. I know the signs to look for to make sure I don't blow it up by running it too lean. I guess that I figured that people have been messing around with power commanders for long enough that there might be something I am missing. Seems like the consensus is a no on that front. Which is ok. I will roll with what I got until i can do more. Thanks for the help.
 

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I know i've asked this before, but, anybody have a good estimate for AFR for oxygenated fuel? I'm running Renegade SX4 fuel which is unleaded 97 octane and 3.6% oxygenated. The bike is solely for drag racing.
I have a pc5 and wideband on it, which I can datalog with. I think i'm somewhere around 12.5 or 13:1, but it's been since september since i've touched it or look at data.
 

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I know i've asked this before, but, anybody have a good estimate for AFR for oxygenated fuel? I'm running Renegade SX4 fuel which is unleaded 97 octane and 3.6% oxygenated. The bike is solely for drag racing.
I have a pc5 and wideband on it, which I can datalog with. I think i'm somewhere around 12.5 or 13:1, but it's been since september since i've touched it or look at data.
Air fuel is air fuel regardless what fuel you run. You just need more of it for oxygenated. Start safe, around 12.7ish and lean it out till it slows down.. I wouldn't like running more than 13.2 on the top end.
 

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13 seems to be the popular number. I was running at 13 with pump gas. I changed the tune last year after putting some oxygenated fuel into the bike but didn't pay much attention to the afr. More than likely, it's really FAT.
 

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If you're going to get serious about tuning and you plan on changing fuel types, start looking into using lambda readings instead of AFR. If you know your stoich for a given fuel and what stoich the AFR gauge is using you can eyeball/Kentucky windage it in there, but Lambda is always the same for a given application, regardless of the fuel you use.... makes it really handy if you use different fuels often.

EDIT: Simple, but somewhat helpful article http://blog.innovatemotorsports.com/lambda-vs.-afr-whats-the-difference
 

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Anybody familiar with or used Dynojet's Autotune? How much time does it need to figure out map changes? If it's more advantageous for me i'm considering selling my wideband commander and buying an Autotune, but, if it takes a good amount of time to figure out map corrections then i'll just keep on keepin on with my current setup.
 

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Got a question for you drag racers running oxygenated fuel and nitrous.
I’m running mr12 and just installed a nitrous setup. I’ve found with just motor the bike makes best passes at 13:1 afr.
What afr should I be aiming for while spraying nitrous?
Not going any bigger than a 30 shot and running it through a nos mini controller.
 

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When I ran a .032 jet (about 38 WHP jump), we set a WOT no-spray baseline of 12.5:1, and spraying would bring the AFR back up to about 13:1 (which is what it ran off the bottle on the other map). That was pump gas, but it was good for 5-7mph on an otherwise stock bike. Fun fact: the bike actually went about 1 MPH faster running it at 12.5:1 Vs 13:1 when it was off the bottle.

MR12 doesn't have a lot of octane, so you'll want to be careful with your timing if you plan on spraying on top of it. Best power is going to happen somewhere in that 12.5:1-13:1 area (.85-.89 lambda), but you're going to get to a point where you get cylinder pressure high enough that you need more octane, or you'll have to back your timing up or throw more fuel at it to try and get a little more pre-combustion cooling.... and all of those things hurt power a little bit. You get to a point of diminishing (and unsafe) returns rather quickly like that.

MR12 is pretty neat stuff, but I don't have any experience spraying on top of it... may want to ask Gaz what he thinks. There are other oxygenated fuels with more octane that might be better suited to spraying.... while they might not make quite as much off the bottle power as MR12, you can very easily pill right up to where you need to be with the spray... and then some.
 

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I have good luck in the past with Renegade SX4 and VP t4. Both are 100 octane 4% oxy fuels. Maybe I'll get 1 of those cans and use it if i'm spraying and keep the MR12 for just NA runs.
good to know about the 12.5:1. That seems like a good goal to shoot for since it seems pretty happy at 13:1 on MR12.
I've talked with Gaz a ton throughout the nitrous building process. He's been a huge help.
 

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cody no mr12 on spray, either other fuels mentioned will work fine. both are safe nitrous fuels on ur shot and consistient blend which allows u to tune afr better. pump gas we tune around 12.5 due to incostiency, race fuels we tune 12.8-13.0 which is safe with them. suggest setting afr rich and tuning down to desired afr. with that mini, i would start with 30 shot, 50% start rate, pulse in about 1.5 seconds and adjust from there. that 30 shot gonna add about 20 ftlbs torque, so gonna acclerate hard. setup/tune finalized ur gonna love nitrous. keep bottle pressure around 900-950.
 

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Always a wealth of knowledge. Thanks GAZ. I'll see about getting a pail of T4.
 
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