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Discussion Starter #1
Hi all,

So I have been having a stutter at low revs (up until around 2.5k to 3K). I have a slip on Arata pipe with the standard headers and a performance air filter. I took her in last week to get a fuel management system fitted as I hoped this would sort out the issue. It gave me an extra 10HP and the bike feels a lot more responsive and smoother through the revs but only marginally sorted out the stutter. The guys who fitted it said that my first stage butterflies have been removed and this is probably what is causing the issue. Is this true? I bought the bike as it is and have not changed anything so assuming the previous owner had these removed. Had the flashing red light for quite a while which I understand is normal with the slip on, perhaps need one of those servo eliminators.
Also, they also said that if I want to increase the HP in future I could look at possibly finding a set of standard headers from a newer zx10, 2013 - 2015 and that they might fit. Would they fit?
My main concern though is to get rid of the stutter. Any advice would be highly appreciated!

Thanks
Andre
 

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Yup, the likely culprit for your issue is the missing secondary butterfly valves. That was an old trick to remove them to try and gain horsepower in the upper rpm band. It hurts your low-end in doing so.

If you have the FI light flashing, you need to pull the service code to figure out what's triggering it. Don't speculate on the problem, figure out the code so you know for sure.

No, the newer headers wont work on the older model.
 
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Thanks SkyDork, so I need to source a set of secondary butterflies for my bike (not an easy taks especially due to the age of the bike but hopefully I get lucky!) Would an aftermarket header perhaps sort out the problem too or will I still have the issue ? Was wondering if a full aftermarket system would perhaps help.

I did check the code out a few months back (I can't remember the number offhand but think it was 63) and it related to the butterfly valve or servo motor which I was told to expect due to the aftermarket slip on.
 

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Thanks SkyDork, so I need to source a set of secondary butterflies for my bike (not an easy taks especially due to the age of the bike but hopefully I get lucky!) Would an aftermarket header perhaps sort out the problem too or will I still have the issue ? Was wondering if a full aftermarket system would perhaps help.

I did check the code out a few months back (I can't remember the number offhand but think it was 63) and it related to the butterfly valve or servo motor which I was told to expect due to the aftermarket slip on.
Well, getting parts for that bike isn't that bad. New OEM parts are still being sold by Kawasaki. The problem is those plates are part of the TB assembly and not sold separately. You're going to have to see if someone has a set laying around that they took off or get a whole new TB assembly. Or just live with it.

No, an exhaust isn't going to help much, if at all. The purpose of the secondaries is to keep the air from rushing into the motor by opening the plates more slowly. The ECU controls them to try and maintain a smooth, predictable flow into the motor so it doesn't do what you're describing. But, they're also used to restrict the power somewhat up in the upper RPM band. So people chose to remove them in order to derestrict the motor. The problem was, this mod came from the ZX-14 guys where it's much more restricted than the Gen 2 ZX-10 was. A lot of people just removed them because "they heard it worked for someone else's brothers cousin's stepsister". There are gains up top by removing them, but not huge gains. And it sacrifices the low end in doing so.

Code 34 is the exhaust valve actuator sensor. Slightly different than the 63 code for the actuator itself.
 

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Well, getting parts for that bike isn't that bad. New OEM parts are still being sold by Kawasaki. The problem is those plates are part of the TB assembly and not sold separately. You're going to have to see if someone has a set laying around that they took off or get a whole new TB assembly. Or just live with it.

No, an exhaust isn't going to help much, if at all. The purpose of the secondaries is to keep the air from rushing into the motor by opening the plates more slowly. The ECU controls them to try and maintain a smooth, predictable flow into the motor so it doesn't do what you're describing. But, they're also used to restrict the power somewhat up in the upper RPM band. So people chose to remove them in order to derestrict the motor. The problem was, this mod came from the ZX-14 guys where it's much more restricted than the Gen 2 ZX-10 was. A lot of people just removed them because "they heard it worked for someone else's brothers cousin's stepsister". There are gains up top by removing them, but not huge gains. And it sacrifices the low end in doing so.

Code 34 is the exhaust valve actuator sensor. Slightly different than the 63 code for the actuator itself.
Thanks again SkyDork...I thought the butterflies were part of the exhaust, like the exup valve on my old FZR1000, shows my total ignorance:surprise: I'll check around and see if anyone has a spare throttle body. Thanks for the explanation on how they function, always love learning something new about my bike! I don't really want to live with it (if I have a choice) as it is annoying especially when I want to do a slow/normal pull away from a traffic light etc.
I must say that I'm happy with the hp my bike has as standard, don't think it was from the removal of the butterflies, but before the fuel management system was put on, she put out 181whp and after 189whp. They had a ZX14 (probably a 2009/2010) model which put out 196whp after adding the fuel management. The only thing they said with mine is that they couldn't set her for any more hp as then she started stuttering on top end and losing hp so they couldn't take her as far as they normally do and this is because of the butterflies. Thanks again:thumbsup:
 

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most tuners do mid/top end tuning only. with fuel management installed that low end studder can be tuned out if it is lean condition from flies removed and rest of fuel system is good. clogged/dirty injectors are very common on 10 year old bikes and would cause same problem with poor spray pattern and low velocities at low rpm. they have been such a problem for me on builds last two years i've made professional injector cleaning mandatory on all bikes i build. that would be my next step. even bikes that seem to be fine are smother, more responsive and faster after this process. pro flow technologies in new port richie fl. has done a great job for me. 1-2 day turnaround, best $91 including shipping u will spend on ur bike. just finished putting a crank in a zx14, let the clutch out and in stop and go traffic, anything under 3k, that bike wanted to surge, buck and miss. sent injectors off and replaced once cleaned, he is one happy guy, miss gone, he cant believe the difference in power and smoothness. no flies in this zx14 either.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
most tuners do mid/top end tuning only. with fuel management installed that low end studder can be tuned out if it is lean condition from flies removed and rest of fuel system is good. clogged/dirty injectors are very common on 10 year old bikes and would cause same problem with poor spray pattern and low velocities at low rpm. they have been such a problem for me on builds last two years i've made professional injector cleaning mandatory on all bikes i build. that would be my next step. even bikes that seem to be fine are smother, more responsive and faster after this process. pro flow technologies in new port richie fl. has done a great job for me. 1-2 day turnaround, best $91 including shipping u will spend on ur bike. just finished putting a crank in a zx14, let the clutch out and in stop and go traffic, anything under 3k, that bike wanted to surge, buck and miss. sent injectors off and replaced once cleaned, he is one happy guy, miss gone, he cant believe the difference in power and smoothness. no flies in this zx14 either.
Thanks gazx10, I'll definitely look into getting the injectors cleaned, makes sense! I just need to find someone here in South Africa who can do it for me. Now that you mention this, she only started with the stutter about 2 years ago. She was running fine for the first 9 months I had her and the previous owner never experienced the stutter and he must have taken the butterflies off long before he sold me the bike. Hopefully part of the issue is to do with dirty injectors because I think I'm going to struggle to find a second set of throttle bodies here. Thanks again!:thumbsup:
 

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Discussion Starter #10
Just another question, we've been chatting about the secondary butterflies which I can see are in the throttle body as per attached picture but where are the primary butterflies located? (excuse my ignorance)
 

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pic is showing 3 secondary flies removed and one in place. primary flies are bottom units, they open manually with throttle opening. i remove secondary flies and rods-everything there on my ten builds, do not experience what ur describing before tune. bike will rip after throttle position tune flies/rods out. just saying my experience with flies out does not produce as dramatic a result as ur describing.
 

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:+1:

....sounds like a compound issue, fo sho.



PS: Throttle body assemblies are all over ebay if you need parts.... usually in the 50-100 range for a full set.
 

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pic is showing 3 secondary flies removed and one in place. primary flies are bottom units, they open manually with throttle opening. i remove secondary flies and rods-everything there on my ten builds, do not experience what ur describing before tune. bike will rip after throttle position tune flies/rods out. just saying my experience with flies out does not produce as dramatic a result as ur describing.
Thanks again gazx10, then I'm definitely going to organize a cleaning of the fuel injectors and then take it from there.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
I have managed to remove the fuel rail including the fuel injectors. Any tips on how to remove the fuel injectors from the fuel rail? I'm afraid of breaking them if I pull on them but can't see any other way of getting them off. Any help will be highly appreciated!!
 

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just a little wiggle and pull. pop right out. rubber o ring gets a little stuck sometimes, u wont break a fuel injector.
Thanks gazx10, I didn't want to take a chance on breaking them so I sent them in still attached to the fuel rail:laugh2: So far they are saying that they are just dirty and are giving them a clean. I've asked them to check whether any refurbishment is required and they will let me know this week. Holding thumbs that this will make a difference, if not then at least I know they are clean and spraying correctly.
 

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the company i use checks resistance, measures flow, checks spray pattern as recieved and record info. pintle caps, baskets are removed from injectors and all are cleaned ultrasonically for 45 minutes, then pressure backflushed and reassembled with all pieces cleaned. new spray pattern and flow volume are recorded for u along with preservice info. new o rings are installed. hopefully this will resolve problem. guarantee u will feel a difference. need to remove that last odd secondary flie plate. probably screws stripped a little, i use a soldering iron on head for about 30 sec to heat and loosen factory locktite.
 

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the company i use checks resistance, measures flow, checks spray pattern as recieved and record info. pintle caps, baskets are removed from injectors and all are cleaned ultrasonically for 45 minutes, then pressure backflushed and reassembled with all pieces cleaned. new spray pattern and flow volume are recorded for u along with preservice info. new o rings are installed. hopefully this will resolve problem. guarantee u will feel a difference. need to remove that last odd secondary flie plate. probably screws stripped a little, i use a soldering iron on head for about 30 sec to heat and loosen factory locktite.
Thanks gazx10. I'm hoping they do the same process. A mate of mine has taken them in for me to someone he knows. Hopefully getting them back soon. Will let you know if it makes a difference.
 

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An update..I got the injectors back, put them in and she was idling nice and clearly for a few minutes and then started again with the spluttering. I've been reading up a bit and was wondering if perhaps my issue is not the TPS ? Any change that this could be the issue and how would I diagnose it?
 
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