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Discussion Starter #1
I have an 08 10r that I plan on putting the Kawi race intake cam into this winter (along with the 0.45 HG). I am also doing a valve adjustment on my buddies 04 10r this winter and I was thinking while I was in there, I might as well throw my 08's stock intake cam along with a 0.45 HG to give his a little added hp too. My first question is how much advantage is there with an 08 race cam vs 08 stock cam in a 1st gen 10? I assume the difference between the two would be minimal. And my second question is, what would be a good cam degree setup for an 08 stock cam in the 1st gen (mostly hard street riding with occasional drag use)? I have found a lot of info on the 08 race cam in the 1st gen, but nothing really about degree numbers for the 08 stock cam. The 08 stock intake cam has 8 degrees less duration than the 04, but 0.6mm more lift. Thanks for the help!
 

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I have an 08 10r that I plan on putting the Kawi race intake cam into this winter (along with the 0.45 HG). I am also doing a valve adjustment on my buddies 04 10r this winter and I was thinking while I was in there, I might as well throw my 08's stock intake cam along with a 0.45 HG to give his a little added hp too. My first question is how much advantage is there with an 08 race cam vs 08 stock cam in a 1st gen 10? I assume the difference between the two would be minimal. And my second question is, what would be a good cam degree setup for an 08 stock cam in the 1st gen (mostly hard street riding with occasional drag use)? I have found a lot of info on the 08 race cam in the 1st gen, but nothing really about degree numbers for the 08 stock cam. The 08 stock intake cam has 8 degrees less duration than the 04, but 0.6mm more lift. Thanks for the help!


The 08 intake cam on a first gen would be a downgrade if you are looking for topend power.

Also,the 08 stock intake cam and the 08 race intake cam have only 4° difference in duration and the same lift,I think it aint worth the $...
 

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Would not install the stock 08 intake cam on a 04 1st gen bike - it would not be an upgrade. If you want to, while your in on the 1st gen just degree the stock cams in, but dont put the 08 stock cam in on the 04 - the 1st gens love duration - which the stock 08 does not have.
 

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I disagree with their theories, here's why
-04/05 intake cam 300 degrees duration w/.358 inch lift
-08/09 intake cam 292 degrees duration w/.382 inch lift

The duration is the usable power range, how long the valve stayes open.
If you visit any cam web site, you will see more lift in comparison to duration. many engines are built with less oversquare, unlike the kawi's (more bore, less stroke)

If you use the 08 cam in your bike you will gain more power sooner, while the 04 can will give you less power where you need it (mid to high), but will prolong the pwr it provides a little longer.

Now here is the issue, look at the lobe centers of the cam set up (04/05 zx10 104/102); 08/09 zx10 111/102). The 04 gives you more low to mid power in comparison to the 08.. you have less hp/tq down low, but it out performs the 04 on the big end.

So, where will you put your power? Ihave owned two 04's, one 05 an 07 & 08... I currently own the 07 and 08. The 08 runs two tenths faster, both bikes (04 and 08) have .017 thinner head gaskets and were on Mr9. I had to run more gearing on the 08 because of the lack of mid hp/tq and the both bikes run nearly same mph (148)

Suggestion:
-use the .45mm thin head gasket
-use the 08/09 zx10 stock intake cam(49118-0116) or 08/09 race cam (49118-0134)
-depending on your weight, I suggest keeping the number a lil higher 107/107; Kawi recommends for the 08/09 In/ex 110/102

Reason:
the 04/05 exhaust profile numbers are the same as the recommend 08/09 race exhaust cam (49118-0045)
-I can't exactly tell you what the numbers will be; if I had to gestimate, I think this will give you another 5 to 7 hp

Note: the 04/05 exhaust cam can not be used in the 06/07 or the 08-10 models (reason) you bike will not start because of the cam timing mark is read by the ECU.

Tell me how it works... if possible do before and after dyno runs..

Hopes this helps

JTR Inc
 

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Intake: 0.15 ~ 0.22 mm, Exhaust:
0.17 ~ 0.22 mm
�� More performance is expected when adjusted from middle value to upper limit between
adjustable range.
 

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Sorry gen 1 full system kit intake cam pc ign module ecu reflashed to 13650 vel head work soon e85 etc... Stock bottom end bike I'm no drag racer but the first te at the track I went 6.57 at 121.6 at 200 # I still couldn't get her wot without it wheeling through 3rd across the line
 

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Discussion Starter #11
Thanks for the responses guys.

JTR,
The 04 is already geared -1/+2 and you can't keep the front wheel down in the first 3 gears. The owner also runs it hard, so it spends a good majority of time in the upper portion of the rpm range. I think more power on top end for the 04 will be a welcome addition, as long as it doesn't make it a dog on bottom. BTW, riders of both bikes are fairly lightweight (under 200# fully geared up).

As for the cam swap not being worth the $, I would have to disagree. I have heard of many people picking up at least 3-4 hp using the race cam in the 3rd Gens. The only required parts really are the cam and head gasket, which comes to a grand total of about $150. The HP/$ spent is quite a bit better then say, a slip-on where you pay $400+ for 5-7hp (which is optomistic). Yea you could say the cost of oil, coolant and labor would bump the price up but it doesn't for me in my situation. I do all the work myself so there are no labor charges, and it gives me something to do over the winter. Plastics are already off for paint (going from blue to jet black to gain another 5hp or so :lol:). It was also due for an oil and filter change, and I'm switching the coolant to engine ice. So there is really no additional costs for me other than the cam and gasket. The bike was bone stock at the beginning of the winter so it was going to need to be dynotuned after all of the other mods anyway.

And like I said, the valves on the 04 had to be checked so it isn't that much more work to swap in a cam while I'm in there (Cam is free, HG ~$20).

Any other input would be appreciated! :eek:ccasion1
 

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looks like I'm going to be snowed in this week. So I am going to test this cam theory to see if the stock 08 cam will make more power than the stock 06-07 cam. going to pull the bike on the dyno in the morning then swap cams and see what makes better power.
 

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Discussion Starter #14
looks like I'm going to be snowed in this week. So I am going to test this cam theory to see if the stock 08 cam will make more power than the stock 06-07 cam. going to pull the bike on the dyno in the morning then swap cams and see what makes better power.
Nothing better to do when snowed in then play w a 10 on the dyno! :thumbsup: I wish I had a dyno at my fingertips so I could mess with the cam timing when the time comes to tune the bikes. I get a pretty good deal on dyno tuning, but not good enough for tearing into the motor between runs to adjust cam timing. I am excited to hear how that motor reacts to the 08 cam.
 

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I disagree with their theories, here's why
-04/05 intake cam 300 degrees duration w/.358 inch lift
-08/09 intake cam 292 degrees duration w/.382 inch lift

The duration is the usable power range, how long the valve stayes open.
If you visit any cam web site, you will see more lift in comparison to duration. many engines are built with less oversquare, unlike the kawi's (more bore, less stroke)

If you use the 08 cam in your bike you will gain more power sooner, while the 04 can will give you less power where you need it (mid to high), but will prolong the pwr it provides a little longer.

Now here is the issue, look at the lobe centers of the cam set up (04/05 zx10 104/102); 08/09 zx10 111/102). The 04 gives you more low to mid power in comparison to the 08.. you have less hp/tq down low, but it out performs the 04 on the big end.

So, where will you put your power? Ihave owned two 04's, one 05 an 07 & 08... I currently own the 07 and 08. The 08 runs two tenths faster, both bikes (04 and 08) have .017 thinner head gaskets and were on Mr9. I had to run more gearing on the 08 because of the lack of mid hp/tq and the both bikes run nearly same mph (148)

Suggestion:
-use the .45mm thin head gasket
-use the 08/09 zx10 stock intake cam(49118-0116) or 08/09 race cam (49118-0134)
-depending on your weight, I suggest keeping the number a lil higher 107/107; Kawi recommends for the 08/09 In/ex 110/102

Reason:
the 04/05 exhaust profile numbers are the same as the recommend 08/09 race exhaust cam (49118-0045)
-I can't exactly tell you what the numbers will be; if I had to gestimate, I think this will give you another 5 to 7 hp

Note: the 04/05 exhaust cam can not be used in the 06/07 or the 08-10 models (reason) you bike will not start because of the cam timing mark is read by the ECU.

Tell me how it works... if possible do before and after dyno runs..

Hopes this helps

JTR Inc
Well, not so much really. What I saw stated: "The duration is the usable power range, how long the valve stays open." May I ask where that came from? How about holding it open another 10 or 100 degrees then? Another 50 horses?

And then we have: "If you visit any cam web site, you will see more lift in comparison to duration." Answer: Should we maybe consider that’s because they have to regrind originals or other blanks? To get more lift, they have to cut the base circle down and you have to shim up to make up the difference. {Smaller base circle = more valve train stress as well}.

1: No one here has stated any theories that I can see (not in the real scientific sense anyway). Closest are "ideas" and maybe a hypothesis.

2: When did any cam site or makers of cams for that matter have a rule like that?

I'll drop the harsh rhetorical crap and keep this comical - but real. First off, the cams and the engine in which they reside are a part of a system. Duration and lift scenarios don't even scratch the surface of what is going on. You cannot make blanket statements about lift and duration on a certain cam in more than one SPECIFIC engine system.

The intake velocity through the throttle bores at many given lift readings on a Gen1 vs. a Gen3 is not similar - so it would seem to make sense that those engines would respond differently to the exact same alterations - and guess what? - They do in real world testing! To get the benefit of overlap intake supercharging, the Gen1 likes more duration at mid-high RPM (within certain tight parameters). It can take a bit more lift because of that increase in duration - it cannot have that lift without the increase in duration unless valve and spring stresses are allowed to go ballistic (*).

There are a ton of other cam profile issues in engine design that I am not going to go over here - do your own homework if you want to be a guru in this stuff - but there is a real and vexing issue with system harmonics as well (2011 ZX-10r anyone?). We can make more power with radical multi-curve acceleration ramps, but the spring forces required to keep the valve following the cam profile would lead to engines that had life span of a fruit fly in a DDT factory.

(*) The valve train can only stand so much acceleration within a given design. The acceleration I am talking about is how damn fast you are throwing the valve open - and - then slamming it back down to its seat. The Accel ramp is the profile that takes the valve to full lift - it is NEVER linear. It has to start mellow - get radical midway - then get mellow again for the close (and the two ramps are not the same either). If this profile doesn't do it with some grace (which isn't the best for HP) the valve floats (read doesn't follow cam programming) and may drop engine power (best case) or smack valves into pistons (kind-of not good).

Let’s get real. What we want is the most efficient cylinder filling of air we can get at every possible rpm range. We are NOT going to get that with our current static cam timing or profiles. But you want that right? No fear, It’s coming and without throttle plates (to much in the way of pumping losses to keep those damn things). But since we are locked into our scenarios on these engines for right now, don’t get steered into thinking there are blanket and over-simple answers/rules that so many yahoos and aftermarket thugs talk you into to get into your wallet.
 

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Discussion Starter #18
looks like I'm going to be snowed in this week. So I am going to test this cam theory to see if the stock 08 cam will make more power than the stock 06-07 cam. going to pull the bike on the dyno in the morning then swap cams and see what makes better power.
Any updates?
 

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sorry guys, We've been playing with my freinds 08.
Mine is making 165hp right now with the 08 stock cam. Im gunna swap the cams and see if my stock one makes more. hopefully we can finish his up tommorrow and start on mine I'll keep you guys posted. Got more snow than I was expecting and spent all week playing in it instead.
 

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ok guys i got the stock cam back in and made a pull with them at stock degree and i lost 7hp from 11000- 13000 rpms consistantly and the bike went really rich. Im guessing becuase the extra lift of the 08 stocker gave the bike more air.

So I redegreed the cams back to what I had the 08 cam at and I am going to make a few pulls shortly and Ill keep you guys up to date.
 
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