08 ZX10 power commander popping

3493 Views 12 Replies 6 Participants Last post by IggyBcool, Jul 22, 2010

campanadetaco

Discussion Starter · Jul 18, 2010

I know this is a question that comes up several times. I had a 636 and the power commander came pre-programed and they did a great job. I never had a single pop when I would slow down and I could tell a difference in throttle response and HP. I purchased a left over 08 zx10 for 7,800. Which I thought was a super price and I had to jump on it. I bought a slip on two brothers that eliminates the cat. i put in a K&N air filter and bought the pc III. However, the map that they put in is horrible. It pops even more then it did before I put it in. (I ran the bike for two weeks on just the two brothers slip on). So I obviously need to re-map it. I know that the best way is to throw it on a dyno. However, I don't have the money right now to do that. So in the mean time can someone please share a map with me if they have a similar set up. And when I say share the map could you please explain it to me like this is the first time I am hooking up my comp to my bike and tell me exactly what I need to do. (because it is the first time). I'll repeat my mods once again...PCIII, K&N airfilter, two brothers slip that eliminates the cat. Also the temp here is between 80-95 and very humid. Thank you

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shoginator

· #2 · Jul 19, 2010

campanadetaco said:
I know this is a question that comes up several times. I had a 636 and the power commander came pre-programed and they did a great job. I never had a single pop when I would slow down and I could tell a difference in throttle response and HP. I purchased a left over 08 zx10 for 7,800. Which I thought was a super price and I had to jump on it. I bought a slip on two brothers that eliminates the cat. i put in a K&N air filter and bought the pc III. However, the map that they put in is horrible. It pops even more then it did before I put it in. (I ran the bike for two weeks on just the two brothers slip on). So I obviously need to re-map it. I know that the best way is to throw it on a dyno. However, I don't have the money right now to do that. So in the mean time can someone please share a map with me if they have a similar set up. And when I say share the map could you please explain it to me like this is the first time I am hooking up my comp to my bike and tell me exactly what I need to do. (because it is the first time). I'll repeat my mods once again...PCIII, K&N airfilter, two brothers slip that eliminates the cat. Also the temp here is between 80-95 and very humid. Thank you

The best way you're going to understand this stuff is to figure a bit out on your own. If you can't do that, you’re wasting everyones time. Now - That being said, let me see if I can help a bit here with some data you're going to need in your quest.

1: No two bikes are the same. I don’t care if they have the exact same mods and they were blessed by the same monk. There is a problem called sensor drift (aka Manufacturing tolerance). Ever noticed in service manuals that there is a "range" of readings that is OK for a certain sensor to be within before they tell you to replace it? Sometimes this is a 5% to 20% variation in what is "OK". We have Throttle Position, Cam position, Crank position, Air intake temp, Fuel pressure, Manifold absolute pressure, Water temp, O2 (on some), etc, etc. Can you imagine the variations in two identical bikes now? So the best is checking on a dyno and NOT copying off a buddy (unless you steal all of his sensors too).

2: There is an issue with off-throttle popping in all 4 strokes. If you don't richen up the fuel during off-throttle, you will lean pop all over the place. Carburetor bikes accomplished this with an “Enrichening” circuit that opened a fuel jet/port when the throttle was closed - it only worked during high manifold vacuum conditions (engine braking) so as not to have any influence at idle or low load. You can completely remove fuel (shut down injectors) during this time and get the same results, but you don't get the added benefit of the cooling effects of raw fuel evaporating within the combustion chambers (the EPA hates this “Fuel as coolant” shit).

(3) You have a power commander. You have the ability to re-map the entire zero-throttle area of the maps. Which means if you want to throw more fuel at the popping problem, increase the fuel by 10 or 15% at let's say from 3k rpm to 11k rpm but only in the zero to 2% throttle opening areas.

If you don't know how to do this, spend some time with the manual and software and it will become quite clear.

Good Luck!

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craig_sez

· #3 · Jul 19, 2010 (Edited)

Shoginator...Nice write up...But i wanna add a smidge of info....From what i have been told by a cpl kawi dealers and racers that the k/n is a crappy product....Even the stock filter is better...When it comes time to clean that filter dont forget to oil it but dont over do it too..
To help with a good map look into the the block off plate mod..Another point to remember to is that a map made in todays conditions will not be all that tomorrow until those exact conditions replay themselves..It will be as good as it gets unless you get auto tune but even that has its down falls too(do a search on that..
Another point is not to get hung up on dyno #'s either..There are two forms of measurement and i forget what they both are but dont let them measure in std,thats the old form..Worry about a nice even fuel air ratio..
Im tryin to remember a cpl more things but im stuck watching the wives of orange county..Man that tamara make me hard!!

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Kawawog

· #4 · Jul 19, 2010

I too have a gen 3 with just a k&n street filter and yoshi slip on but with the cat still intact.. I get some pretty fierce popping on closed throttle, especially in the cold temps im riding in atm being winter here..
What i wana know, is their any risk of damaging valves, pistons etc from this kind of off throttle leaning ?
Sorry for the noob question.. Better to be safe then sorry:wink:

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campanadetaco

Discussion Starter · #5 · Jul 20, 2010

Yeah, you are right, I am much better trial and error anyway. I am more of a skimmer then a reader. With all my bolt ons and extras i figure if I can take the old one off I can put the new one on. So I do all of my own work. However, with the PCIII I put it on and was not satisfied. So I skimmed the direction, and your replies and started changing maps and trying different ones until I was semi satisfied. But I still have a question, can your program the PCIII for more pull at low end? If so If I am in 90 degree weather what number ranges would I need to be in at low lower RPms? Any and all help would be great.

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campanadetaco

Discussion Starter · #6 · Jul 20, 2010

Oh yeah, I was told the K&N was shitty too. But then my dealer who races quarter miles showed me his zx10 and said the K&N does make a difference if you keep it clean and I should go ahead and get it. Maybe he was just tryint to make a buck because the stock and K&N looked very similiar.

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IggyBcool

· #7 · Jul 20, 2010

Good thing that Shoguns and Magics post's don't contradict each other.. lol. One says that it being lean causes the popping and flames, the other says being rich causes it.

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KIRK_ADAMS

· #8 · Jul 21, 2010

cool thread...

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Kawawog

· #9 · Jul 21, 2010

MagicMavis said:
There is popping because there is gas exploding in the pipes, especially with the super hot cat igniting the gas and the air injection system connected providing the air.

Get rid of the cat (if possible). You may not want to buy a new header and I understand.

Block off the pair valve. Numerous ways to do that from the very simple to the more complex. Use the search.

PULL fuel out of the 0% column in the PC (if you have a PC)

Starting at 1000 and thru 2250 RPMs, pull -20% of fuel in those cells.

That may seem like a lot, but since the duty cycle of the injector is less than 2% at closed throttle, a -20% change takes it from 2% to 1.6%. So not as huge as it seems.

If you do all 3 poping will be gone.

Getting rid of the cat gets rid of the heat source to burn the fuel, blocking the pair keeps fresh air out of the header to ignite the unburned fuel, and pulling fuel from the 0% column removes the fuel that ignites from the cat heat.

You really need to do all 3.

The bike is popping the same with the STOCK EXHAUST, you just dont hear it like you do with a open pipe because the stock exhaust is so muffled.

Thanks for the great info champ,I apprieciate it..
I plan on buying a pc5 in the next couple of months, remove the cat and get a custom map/dyno, cheers:thumbsup:

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IggyBcool

· #10 · Jul 21, 2010

So, I'm confused.. Is it popping/shooting flames because its rich or lean on the 0, 2%?

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IggyBcool

· #11 · Jul 21, 2010

Took my 3g to the shop today and talked to my mechanic. His words exactly were its called a lean misfire. Only some of the fuel in the cylinder is burned leaving a pocket of unburned fuel and once the valve opens, it dumps the unburned fuel in the exhaust and then when another cylinder fires, it ignites in the exhaust. The solution he said was to slightly add just a bit more fuel. How ever in doing this, you will create a dead spot in the map because when you crack the throttle it will already have more fuel than needed and will have to burn it.

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Kawawog

· #12 · Jul 22, 2010

I actually love the popping sound mine makes, sounds tuff

I was more concerned if it was raising the risk of internal parts failing as a result..
If not, ill leave it as is till i purchase my pc5 then let the tuner sort everything out:thumbsup:

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IggyBcool

· #13 · Jul 22, 2010

From the way he explained it, its not hurting anything, but if it is constantly shooting big huge flames, it will start weaking the can and may split.

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