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Discussion Starter #1
I know there are a ton of threads on this subject, but it would take to long to sift for the right one to ask this question. It's more of a clarification point anyways:

'05 10R with stock MC, Galfer SS lines. Now I know that stock the lever travels quite a distance before engaging the brakes, which is one major complaint on the stock '04/'05 MC. During my 1st 10R trackday yesterday the amount of free lever travel increased dramatically towards the end of the session. After cooling down, the feel started to come back. Understand, it is not a 'squishy' feeling in the lever, there is no feeling in the lever (it has free motion) until it engages, way to close to the clip-on.

So my question is this: Obviously heat is playing a part in the issue, but is it possible there's air in the line? I was always under the impression that air in the line felt 'squishy' where this is literally no feel at all.

Oh yeah, there was no loss of braking power - I still managed to put it on it's nose in the 1 hard braking area at Mid O, it just doesn't engage the brakes until well into the lever travel.
 

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Yankee Racer
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I would say there is air in the lines but probably even more so there is air in the master cylinder since there is no way to bleed the m/c due to there being no bleed nipple. That is one of the few reasons that the Brembo m/c is much better.
 

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lavudyar said:
I know there are a ton of threads on this subject, but it would take to long to sift for the right one to ask this question. It's more of a clarification point anyways:

So my question is this: Obviously heat is playing a part in the issue, but is it possible there's air in the line? I was always under the impression that air in the line felt 'squishy' where this is literally no feel at all.
Ray

Yes heat play's a part along with air if its present and will certainly exhibit signs of being 'squishy'.

In my particular case i've used ss-lines, Motul fluid in my past bikes as well as the 10 AND i've also used whats referred to as a 'dbl banjo bleeder' (see pic below) as an additional method of not just bleeding the system but bleeding it @ the MC (traditional type) and once i have thouroughly bleed the entire system its 99% air free. Prior to installing the zx6r MC and ss-lines this is the setup i used @ a couple of trackdays and given the free lever travel / squishy feel that it still had the system begin to suffer performance wise (FADE) from heat after repeated heavy braking due to poor internal tolerances / swelling of said parts = blow-by of the MC so heavy braking into 1 corner is one thing but repeated use is where the system fails.

BD
 

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I've got ss lines,stock brembo mc that comes on the 05 R1 and use silkolene racing brake fluid,also using stock 06 pads.I still get a little fade but nothing like stock.btw the 06 pads fit the 04-05's but use a different part # and use no backing[heat]plate,and even though the compound # on the back is the same as 05 pads I can tell you they work a lot better esp initial bite.tried ebc's hh but they faded more as i think they get hotter.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
At this point I have resigned myself to getting a new MC pretty much. That being said, my brakes never got 'squishy' at all - there was good initial bite and plenty of power, there was just major amounts of free travel that got worse as the session went on. By the 2nd to last session, I scared myself by reaching for brakes that weren't where I thought they'd be!

Anyways, until I can afford the new MC I'll be a bleedin' fool!
 

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Green Hippie
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you can try changing to a better fluid as well went with the motul synthetic and it helped
 

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I had some of the same responses after several hard brakes on my 10. I have stock MC, galapher lines, stock pads.

One of my local mechanics told me the way they do the brakes, I ahve done it on my last bike and the 10 and it does make a huge improvement. When I mounted my tires last week for my track this last sunday (4/30) I left my paddock and about dumped the bike when I hit the brakes as they hit hard and had alot more bite.

Here is what I did, try it and see if it helps, then buy a aftermarket or better stock MC...

First pull the calipers off of the forkleg one side at a time. Pull the pads out of the caliper you are working with and pump the lever until the pistons come out most of the way.

Then I use a rag and some brake cleaner and I clean all of the gunk off of the pistons. I alsot clean most of the caliper up as well, but main goal is to remove the built up brake dust on the pistons.

I removed the silver backer plates off of my pads and the spring loaded anti rattle clips. Now this is one of the key parts to this trick.

ONLY MOVE THE PISTONS BACK IN ENOUGH TO GET THE PADS BACK INTO THE CALIPER AND WITH ENOUGH ROOM TO GET THE CAIPER BACK ONTO THE ROTOR.

From what he told me is that when you pump them out the wiper seal that seals the piston has a tendency to pull the piston back off of the rotor, buy pushing the pistons out, cleaning them and then only pushing them in enough to clear the rotors it makes it to when when you get off of the brakes that the pistons only pull back in a very minimal amount.

Try this first, once I did this I also rebleed both calipers after I was done doing this technique on both sides, I found that one of my pistons was not moving freely, so this fixed that and made a major improvment overall in the braking feel and bite.

I did over 120 miles at the trackday today, never once did the brakes begin to fade, they felt fine and very controlable for the entire day.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
Thanks sneaky, I'll try that. Also, is there a trick to removing the caliper bolts without damaging them? I darn near stripped one of them - can't believe how soft they are!
 

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Just make sure you are completely into the caliper bolts. I did the same thing on my 636 and knew about it once I got the 10 so I made sure to push the allen socket all the way into the bolt head.
 

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During the first few months after the 10 was released people were finding out that removing the ss backing plates from the pads actually firmed up the lever feel and for those that removed the rattle clips like myself figured it would allow the pads a bit of movement or 'float' if you will but as i thought about it it seemed to me that after many miles of the pads movement/rocking/vibrating within the caliper it could eventually wear & elongate the area where the pads ride so i reinstalled them.

The caliper maintenance that Sneaky mentions is great. :thumbsup:

BD
 

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Even with the 636 m/c I still experience quite a bit of squishiness as the day goes on. The more sessions you run the more you have to squeeze the lever. It still stops well but there is no initial bite.
I am running EBC HH pads, wonder if that has anything to do with it. Buddy with a gsxr 1000 has the same complaint out of his EBC HH.
 

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Yankee Racer
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madkaw said:
Even with the 636 m/c I still experience quite a bit of squishiness as the day goes on. The more sessions you run the more you have to squeeze the lever. It still stops well but there is no initial bite.
I am running EBC HH pads, wonder if that has anything to do with it. Buddy with a gsxr 1000 has the same complaint out of his EBC HH.
I have heard the same problems with the EBC pads. I run galfer hh's and they are pretty good but my brembo m/c makes up for most of the brake problems me thinks. I would love to try Vesrah but I caint justify spending that kinda money on brake pads
 

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zx10ragentblack said:
I would love to try Vesrah but I caint justify spending that kinda money on brake pads
ya would yf'n ya's yankee arse wanna stop f'sho :spit:

confusis say: ya wanna go at some point must stop.

BD
 

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Discussion Starter #14
Back from the dead - I finally won a damn eBay auction for a complete '05 636 right clip on, M/C included for $100 delivered. Now, who wants to buy my Pazzo black shorty 10R brake lever?
 

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When I posted about my trackday last Monday at Mid-Ohio I forgot to mention my results with the 6R m/c. I must not have gotten all the air out when I bled the system at home or something because I had to bleed the system after the first session. But after that it was much better than the oem and even after braking from 160 or so at the end of the back straight all day the lever never came to the bar like with the oem m/c. That was with braided lines, motul fluid, and stock pads.
I bought some vesrah RJL pads to try at the next trackday. I'm pretty happy with the brakes now and from what everyone says, the vesrahs should make them even better.
 

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sneaky said:
I had some of the same responses after several hard brakes on my 10. I have stock MC, galapher lines, stock pads.

One of my local mechanics told me the way they do the brakes, I ahve done it on my last bike and the 10 and it does make a huge improvement. When I mounted my tires last week for my track this last sunday (4/30) I left my paddock and about dumped the bike when I hit the brakes as they hit hard and had alot more bite.

Here is what I did, try it and see if it helps, then buy a aftermarket or better stock MC...

First pull the calipers off of the forkleg one side at a time. Pull the pads out of the caliper you are working with and pump the lever until the pistons come out most of the way.

Then I use a rag and some brake cleaner and I clean all of the gunk off of the pistons. I alsot clean most of the caliper up as well, but main goal is to remove the built up brake dust on the pistons.

I removed the silver backer plates off of my pads and the spring loaded anti rattle clips. Now this is one of the key parts to this trick.

ONLY MOVE THE PISTONS BACK IN ENOUGH TO GET THE PADS BACK INTO THE CALIPER AND WITH ENOUGH ROOM TO GET THE CAIPER BACK ONTO THE ROTOR.

From what he told me is that when you pump them out the wiper seal that seals the piston has a tendency to pull the piston back off of the rotor, buy pushing the pistons out, cleaning them and then only pushing them in enough to clear the rotors it makes it to when when you get off of the brakes that the pistons only pull back in a very minimal amount.

Try this first, once I did this I also rebleed both calipers after I was done doing this technique on both sides, I found that one of my pistons was not moving freely, so this fixed that and made a major improvment overall in the braking feel and bite.

I did over 120 miles at the trackday today, never once did the brakes begin to fade, they felt fine and very controlable for the entire day.
Ok working in the engineering dept for a auto man (honda). let me say this. its not the dust boot that is causing the piston to move back but the actual piston seal. Thing is, its supposed to!! :idea: Its designed to kinda twist like an or-ing or x-ring in a chain and then twist back moving the piston back. U dont want the pads dragging the rotors, this will cause exces heat buildup and failure!

I would never try and defeat this by moving the pistons out to where u can barely fit them over the rotor, u can glaze the rotors/pads right off the bat, create hard spots in the rotors/pads, create heat checks's and flat out do more harm then good. Ur also creatign greater brake wear, loosing hp untill the pads back off enough. and your only gaining feel cause the intital bite will be sooner, but at the expense of all things i mentioned.

Shame on the mechanic for telling you this also :headshake , appearantly he didnt know better.
 

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lavudyar said:
complete '05 636 right clip on, M/C included for $100 delivered.
is that thing the same color gold as the left oem side of the 10? just curious if it matches or not? thanks..
 

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motojay81 said:
is that thing the same color gold as the left oem side of the 10? just curious if it matches or not? thanks..
yes it is. :thumbsup:

BD
 

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phastone said:
When I posted about my trackday last Monday at Mid-Ohio I forgot to mention my results with the 6R m/c. I must not have gotten all the air out when I bled the system at home or something because I had to bleed the system after the first session. But after that it was much better than the oem and even after braking from 160 or so at the end of the back straight all day the lever never came to the bar like with the oem m/c. That was with braided lines, motul fluid, and stock pads.
I bought some vesrah RJL pads to try at the next trackday. I'm pretty happy with the brakes now and from what everyone says, the vesrahs should make them even better.
thats good to hear. i just installed RJL's the other day but have yet to scuff um in.

BD
 
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