Question for track guys: Corner Braking - Page 2 - Kawasaki ZX-10R.net
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post #11 of 51 Old 11-16-2018, 03:20 PM
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What's a rear brake? :) Seriously though, I never use one on the track.

To try and answer the OP's question - at some point, we all overcook a corner. Every rider is making continual adjustments every corner. Most of us learn to do it unconsciously when we learn to ride a bike. By learning to consciously understand how to make these adjustments, you can improve and try to perfect your technique until it becomes unconscious again.

There is a concept of the traction circle, and some of the previous posts touch on it indirectly. The concept is basically you have 100% traction to use in any one direction - acceleration, braking, turning left, turning right. If you brake and turn, you must share the 100% traction between the two directions. If you are going too fast for a corner, you can turn a little less (counter intuitive) to use less turning traction and add braking traction. Once the correct speed is achieved with the added braking, you can increase your turning traction as you decrease braking to continue or complete your turn. This technique can be seen when a racer runs wide in a corner.

This is an oversimplification, and the transitions from braking to turning etc. are important. It also takes practice to understand to what degree you can brake and turn at the same time. As tdh pointed out, smooth adjustments are important. It's best to practice these adjustments when you have not overcooked a corner to gain experience with making them. This is the conscious understanding part I spoke of earlier.

Chuckwalla is a great track. I've ridden it both directions and it races great with lots of passing opportunities. Take it slow, have a plan, and work on one thing at a time. Good luck!
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post #12 of 51 Old 11-16-2018, 03:26 PM
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The number one way to avoid this is keeping your head in the right place and I don't mean body position. Riding at a track day, you should never be pushing 100%, it's the wrong place, wrong time. Go race novice where you get trained to push past that level. I'll come into a corner "too hot" at a track day but I'm only riding at 80%, so I can handle it, roll off gas a little bit, hold brake a little longer, lean a little deeper etc and no big deal. If you're riding too hard, go get instruction to learn how do deal with it.

To answer your question, if you are too hot mid corner and find yourself coming up short on talent, force your eyes down the track where you wanna go, not at that outside edge of asphalt, slowly roll back a few % throttle, push the bike up as far as you possibly can and lean your shoulders down into that corner, it'll tighten up the corner and if you screw it up, you'll have a nice easy lowside. doing anything hasty will most likely result in a not easy high side.

Depending on your riding style, if you're trail braking to apex or gas open through whole corner, etc. changes how you handle it as well.

Best thing to do is go get on track instruction
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post #13 of 51 Old 11-16-2018, 03:26 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by evallarta1 View Post
There are two point when talking midcorner, entry and exit. By your explanation with the throttle I would guess midcorner to exit is what youre talking about. One other thing to possibly think about is controlling your line with the throttle. Many times opening or closing the throttle will cause the bike to push wide or tighten in.



So in your scenario rolling off the throttle (not closing 100% but rolling off 5-10ish%) will cause the bike to weight the front, compress the forks and eliminate trail causing the bike to turn in tighter. You mention that you dont want the bike to pitch, and you are correct, but pitch uncontrollably is a better term. Causing the bike to pitch when you want it to is another way to control the bike. I've worked with riders to intentionally chop the throttle before entry to get the bike to turn better in a particular turn.


Iím not sure what you mean by ďpitchĒ. Could you expand on that? What Iíve gathered from what youíve said is pitch is just the action of the bike leaning into the corner. Correct me if Iím wrong.

The initial portion of your response may be the primary portion of my confusion (two parts of a corner). With this fundamental understanding, if done correctly the need shouldnít arise where youíll have to continue braking on the second portion of the corner. Unless just lightly to keep the front end down on exit.

Thanks, I appreciate it


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post #14 of 51 Old 11-16-2018, 03:31 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nakedinseattle View Post
The number one way to avoid this is keeping your head in the right place and I don't mean body position. Riding at a track day, you should never be pushing 100%, it's the wrong place, wrong time. Go race novice where you get trained to push past that level. I'll come into a corner "too hot" at a track day but I'm only riding at 80%, so I can handle it, roll off gas a little bit, hold brake a little longer, lean a little deeper etc and no big deal. If you're riding too hard, go get instruction to learn how do deal with it.



To answer your question, if you are too hot mid corner and find yourself coming up short on talent, force your eyes down the track where you wanna go, not at that outside edge of asphalt, slowly roll back a few % throttle, push the bike up as far as you possibly can and lean your shoulders down into that corner, it'll tighten up the corner and if you screw it up, you'll have a nice easy lowside. doing anything hasty will most likely result in a not easy high side.



Depending on your riding style, if you're trail braking to apex or gas open through whole corner, etc. changes how you handle it as well.



Best thing to do is go get on track instruction


On the street I trail brake often. As I havenít had a trackday before I cannot speak for my riding style in that manner. I will say I canít wait to find out though. Iím the type of person to research extensively so body, hand, head positioning is all something I practiced years ago and practice now that i own a motorcycle again.

I didnít plan on starting in anything other than the novice/beginners class. And to be honest Iím not expecting to progress to a different group that day unless they ask me to. Mainly just wanting to get more comfortable and break bad habits before they cause something bad to happen.


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post #15 of 51 Old 11-16-2018, 04:49 PM
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I would recommend not focusing too much on BP your first few times out. Novice pace isnít fast enough for it to matter. 1) lines and 2) throttle application should be your focus.

Braking, corner apexís and shifting sequences are built from those first two things. If you keep your focus on lines and (initial) throttle application, the situation youíre concerned about wonít be a problem with a royal screw up!
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post #16 of 51 Old 11-16-2018, 06:18 PM
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pay particular attention to posts #10 & #12

I personally never use the rear brake. My only rear brake is engine braking.

Come on out to Arizona Motorsports Park (AMP) / Xcel trackdays.

They have $99 first timers track fee (normally $179), free leather rentals and free coaches to get you going.

Runs monthly Sept to May, next is 12/02. I try to never miss a tack day at AMP.

We have the same bikes.

Here's some stuff on the G2 from AMP to get you thinking about it...... video is CCW

https://youtu.be/U_AnZltmGz4

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post #17 of 51 Old 11-16-2018, 07:51 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bottoms-Up View Post
pay particular attention to posts #10 & #12

I personally never use the rear brake. My only rear brake is engine braking.

Come on out to Arizona Motorsports Park (AMP) / Xcel trackdays.

They have $99 first timers track fee (normally $179), free leather rentals and free coaches to get you going.

Runs monthly Sept to May, next is 12/02. I try to never miss a tack day at AMP.

We have the same bikes.

Here's some stuff on the G2 from AMP to get you thinking about it...... video is CCW

https://youtu.be/U_AnZltmGz4



Didnít know this was a thing until today, odd timing you mentioned this now. Was just at motormax (dealership) taking to a guy going to the trackday tomorrow.

Iíll look more into AMP for sure since itís closer. That $99 first timers thing being a great motivator .




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post #18 of 51 Old 11-16-2018, 08:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Palehorse View Post
Iím not sure what you mean by ďpitchĒ. Could you expand on that? What Iíve gathered from what youíve said is pitch is just the action of the bike leaning into the corner. Correct me if Iím wrong.

The initial portion of your response may be the primary portion of my confusion (two parts of a corner). With this fundamental understanding, if done correctly the need shouldnít arise where youíll have to continue braking on the second portion of the corner. Unless just lightly to keep the front end down on exit.

Thanks, I appreciate it


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So when I say pitch I mean forward to back, this includes upright or in the corner. Honestly it sounds like you're putting the cart a bit before the horse. All the reading and preparing usually goes out the window cause your brain goes into giddy overload. Just go have fun and dont ride over your head.

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post #19 of 51 Old 11-16-2018, 08:10 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by evallarta1 View Post
Honestly it sounds like you're putting the cart a bit before the horse.


Without a doubt


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post #20 of 51 Old 11-17-2018, 08:03 AM
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In 25+ years of doing this, I've never just "run off the track" without help (i.e. been punted off, or squeeze brake lever to the bar and not enough happens). You should be gradually working up to speed, especially in unfamiliar conditions, so that you simply don't enter corners at a speed that is grossly beyond what you or your bike can do. Overcooking the entrance or misjudging a line happens many times; part of finding out how much you can do involves finding out what's too much. In those situations ... look where you want to go (back onto the proper part of the track) and leave the throttle shut (last thing you want to be doing is increasing speed), just miss the apex and run wide, and you can combine a little front brake with cornering but be smooth and judicious with it, and gather it up when you can. Rear brake while leaned over is the last thing I would ever do. Braking transfers weight forward ... off the rear.

Brake and throttle applications that are uncoordinated with turning are asking for a crash.

If you haven't taken an advanced track oriented riding course, do it.


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