Gen 1: 2004-2005 The PCV Will it work on Gen 1 - Kawasaki ZX-10R.net
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post #1 of 13 Old 04-22-2012, 05:48 PM Thread Starter
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The PCV Will it work on Gen 1

I know it has been hinted at as I have been reading, but I have not found any definite answers...

Will the Power Commander V with the auto-tune addition work on a Gen 1 if an exhaust bung is welded in?

I can only imagine the wiring connectors would be the same for the pcIII vs the pcV. If anyone knows for sure, I would greatly appreciate it. I take my bike through a lot of altitude changes and an auto tune would greatly improve things
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post #2 of 13 Old 04-22-2012, 05:52 PM
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post #3 of 13 Old 04-22-2012, 06:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Fish_ZX-10 View Post
I know it has been hinted at as I have been reading, but I have not found any definite answers...

Will the Power Commander V with the auto-tune addition work on a Gen 1 if an exhaust bung is welded in?

I can only imagine the wiring connectors would be the same for the pcIII vs the pcV. If anyone knows for sure, I would greatly appreciate it. I take my bike through a lot of altitude changes and an auto tune would greatly improve things
Op answered your original question, but I gotta ask something. What the hell does altitude changes have to do with auto tune? The bikes ECU already compensates for altitude given the pressure sensor in the air box. Why does everyone think altitude affectS the AFR? I don't get it.

The power will drop with altitude due to less air and subsequently less fuel, but the AFR remains the same. Theres nothing that the auto tune module will be able to do other than fix your AFR. That can be done at sea level or at 5000feet. The AFR won't change enough to re-map the bike half way up a mountain.

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post #4 of 13 Old 04-22-2012, 09:13 PM Thread Starter
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Op answered your original question, but I gotta ask something. What the hell does altitude changes have to do with auto tune? The bikes ECU already compensates for altitude given the pressure sensor in the air box. Why does everyone think altitude affectS the AFR? I don't get it.

The power will drop with altitude due to less air and subsequently less fuel, but the AFR remains the same. Theres nothing that the auto tune module will be able to do other than fix your AFR. That can be done at sea level or at 5000feet. The AFR won't change enough to re-map the bike half way up a mountain.
That is a great point, and I appreciate both of your answers. I knew that the ECU would compensate to an extent, but my knowledge of it goes only about that far. So with my logic I was thinking that the PCV would increase its limits.

I do go from Kansas to Colorado frequently and of course there is a drastic change in power as I go up in altitude. I knew that the thinner air in the higher elevation would be the cause of the lack of power, I just thought maybe there would be a way to help the ECU compensate. I now know that my logic was wrong.

In your opinion, would there be any other benefit for me to go ahead with a PCV swap or should I just keep with my PCIII?
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post #5 of 13 Old 04-22-2012, 10:19 PM
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In your opinion, would there be any other benefit for me to go ahead with a PCV swap or should I just keep with my PCIII?
No, not unless you don't have access to a decent tuner and absolutely want to tweak the bike yourself with the auto tune. Or you wanna run the LCD screen, or need 2 different maps. Aside from the accessories and add-ons, the PCV does the exact same thing as the PCIII.

But even then, the PCV auo tune doesn't update real-time. It recommends fuel trim updates all the time, but you still have to hook up to the computer and accept them and download them to the PCV to implement them. So it would offer no advantage to you IMO.

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post #6 of 13 Old 04-22-2012, 10:24 PM
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When I get a chance to find a PCV for cheap enough, Im gonna ditch the PCIII and get that + Autotune. Just dont wanna spend a lot on it. That or I might get something to monitor the AFR and tune myself based on readings. Is it worth it? I dont know because I havent done it yet. The PCV offers a greater range of tuning abilities, I believe, compared to a PCIII is another reason. That plus Autotune is enough to entice me.

SkyDork, does the ECU on a Gen 1 actually have the ability to ajust for pressure and air density change? I was always under the impression that the earlier FI bikes lacked the ability to compute and compensate for any change at all.
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post #7 of 13 Old 04-22-2012, 11:22 PM
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The best way to compensate for relatively sudden altitude changes is with forced induction...that's that they do with Cesnas and other small aircraft. Otherwise, as it's already been said, as you increase elevation and the air thins out, your ECU is just going to deliver less fuel (to match said lack of air) and you get less power.

Or, you can run super-oxygenated race fuel all the time; or, constantly blast NOS in the higher elevations...but those are probably not good ideas.

Cesna motor...

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post #8 of 13 Old 04-23-2012, 02:21 AM
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Originally Posted by SkyDork View Post
But even then, the PCV auo tune doesn't update real-time. It recommends fuel trim updates all the time, but you still have to hook up to the computer and accept them and download them to the PCV to implement them. So it would offer no advantage to you IMO.

You are a bit wrong here. The PC-V and autotune are working as real time as it gets. The trim map is just where all the the changes are made and stored,but during the autotune process the bike is actually working on the trim values+basic map. If you add a switch so that you turn the autotune on/off ( that switch can later be used as a map switch,but not simultaneously with the autotune function) you can easily feel or see the difference if you have the LCD screen or if you have the wb2 as autotune.
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post #9 of 13 Old 04-23-2012, 07:49 AM
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Originally Posted by -Op- View Post
When I get a chance to find a PCV for cheap enough, Im gonna ditch the PCIII and get that + Autotune. Just dont wanna spend a lot on it. That or I might get something to monitor the AFR and tune myself based on readings. Is it worth it? I dont know because I havent done it yet. The PCV offers a greater range of tuning abilities, I believe, compared to a PCIII is another reason. That plus Autotune is enough to entice me.

SkyDork, does the ECU on a Gen 1 actually have the ability to ajust for pressure and air density change? I was always under the impression that the earlier FI bikes lacked the ability to compute and compensate for any change at all.
All fuel injection systems have this ability. They have to or they just simply wouldn't work properly. The '00 ZX-12R (first fuel injected bike) had this ability to compensate for pressure changes. The mere fact that the ram air on these bikes means that if the ECU/Fuel Injection couldn't compensate to hold an AFR value, the bike would be horribly lean at speed due to the ram air and horribly rich as the elevation changed. All fuel injection systems have to do this.

Also, the PCV does have an expanded tuning range compared to the PCIII. (100% vs. 1000%). But this will only matter if you're running some really tweaked motor where 100% of the injector duty cycle won't cut it. But then you're looking at higher fuel pump pressure, race fuel, etc. If most of your fuel trim values are 20% or less, what good is having the ability to go all the way to 1000%? :headshake


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Originally Posted by OOphLAMEr View Post
The best way to compensate for relatively sudden altitude changes is with forced induction...that's that they do with Cesnas and other small aircraft. Otherwise, as it's already been said, as you increase elevation and the air thins out, your ECU is just going to deliver less fuel (to match said lack of air) and you get less power.

Or, you can run super-oxygenated race fuel all the time; or, constantly blast NOS in the higher elevations...but those are probably not good ideas.

Cesna motor...
This is only somewhat accurate. That Cessna motor is high-end. It's forced induction, but the lower end Cessna 152's and 172's are normally aspirated carbed O-360 motors. Only the newer models are fuel injected IO-360s. In both cases, there is a mixture control in the cockpit and it's the responsibility of the pilot to manually adjust the mixture in flight to maintain the power level. Best endurance, best power, etc. are different settings on the mixture lever. You have to use the Cylinder Head Temperature gauge to set the power depending on the altitude. Not all aircraft engines are forced induction like this.

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Originally Posted by Balogiannis View Post
You are a bit wrong here. The PC-V and autotune are working as real time as it gets. The trim map is just where all the the changes are made and stored,but during the autotune process the bike is actually working on the trim values+basic map. If you add a switch so that you turn the autotune on/off ( that switch can later be used as a map switch,but not simultaneously with the autotune function) you can easily feel or see the difference if you have the LCD screen or if you have the wb2 as autotune.
My understanding is that you have to accept the recommended fuel trims from the auto tune module to get those to work in the PCV. The auto tune will constantly update and make recommendations, but until those are accepted, you aren't using them. But maybe you are correct on that. Regardless though, it won't be any more accurate or add any power based on altitude changes.

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post #10 of 13 Old 04-23-2012, 09:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SkyDork View Post
My understanding is that you have to accept the recommended fuel trims from the auto tune module to get those to work in the PCV. The auto tune will constantly update and make recommendations, but until those are accepted, you aren't using them. But maybe you are correct on that. Regardless though, it won't be any more accurate or add any power based on altitude changes.

The only difference when you accept the trims is that all the changes are then copied to the basic fuel map. I'm doing this all the time and I'm sure,PC-V and autotune are real time tuning.

It's also very agressive,if for eg you have afr 11.0 and you want to go to 13.5 it won't make a small change at a time until its get there,it will immediately throw a -30 or so and then adjust from there.You can feel the difference within the first 15 minutes of riding.
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