Gen4: Need Advice (FAST) on 2nd Reflash/Tuning - Kawasaki ZX-10R.net
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post #1 of 23 Old 08-15-2014, 11:47 AM Thread Starter
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Gen4: Need Advice (FAST) on 2nd Reflash/Tuning

I need some Constructive advice here. Those of you that know I'm building a bike to track, know that I had it reflashed a few years ago. After that it got dyno tuned, adjusting the fueling to be Very smooth throughout the rev range. I have no complaints there at all. Just thought maybe it could've made more than 169 rwhp with the proper flash (mainly with the timing bump).
I just sent my ECU out to Archer to be flashed again, having the timing adjusted (since I don't think that was done initially), among a few other things like TC settings, no fuel cut, no exhaust servo, etc.
He should have it by tomorrow, on Saturday, and he is going to look into what was changed the first time around. After that, we are going to decide exactly what we're going to change in it.

Here's my question:
-Do you think I should keep my current fueling (since it has been tuned already, and I'm happy with That part), and just add the necessary timing and other options on top?
...Or..
-Do you think that I should drop the current fuel mapping all together, load Archers slip on map, and re-dyno tune after?

*Keep in mind that Archer's slip on map was created with an M4 slip on. I have an AR-GP2 slip on. Dyno tuning is also recommended after reflashing a new fuel map.

The thing is, I don't want to spend money unnecessarily on more dyno tuning, if it's not really required.
What's everyone's opinion?
I know there are a lot of die hard loyal's here that may just say "Reflash it! You won't regret it!" That won't really help me.
So please only give constructive advice here. Thanks.



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post #2 of 23 Old 08-15-2014, 12:21 PM
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as i always try to say, get it baselined, its generally only $50 for a few runs and it'll show you the air fuel ratio across the board WOT but have the tuner do one run not WOT and as long as the AFR sticks around 13.4:1 ish, you're good to go. if you start seeing dips in power or feeling them, then you know it needs new custom fueling maps
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post #3 of 23 Old 08-15-2014, 12:31 PM Thread Starter
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as i always try to say, get it baselined, its generally only $50 for a few runs and it'll show you the air fuel ratio across the board WOT but have the tuner do one run not WOT and as long as the AFR sticks around 13.4:1 ish, you're good to go. if you start seeing dips in power or feeling them, then you know it needs new custom fueling maps

So you're recommending reflashing with the new Archer slip on map,
or keeping the fuel map I have, adding timing, and testing after on the dyno?


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post #4 of 23 Old 08-15-2014, 12:38 PM
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Reflash it with Archer's stuff and get it tweaked later. Keeping your current settings and just adding timing doesn't mean that your current stuff will be good afterwards anyway.

I may not be perfect, but at least I don't ride a Suzuki.

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post #5 of 23 Old 08-15-2014, 01:07 PM
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I had mine Flashed by Archer and then Dyno Tuned after. Every bike is different. Runs bad ass now.
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post #6 of 23 Old 08-15-2014, 01:26 PM
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Why not just have the dyno shop do all the tuning?
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post #7 of 23 Old 08-15-2014, 01:29 PM
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Why not just have the dyno shop do all the tuning?
How would they do that? They most likely can't reflash the ECU and adding timing would require another piggyback unit and still wouldn't give you everything the reflash does.

No, it's better to reflash it and get everything all-in-one.

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post #8 of 23 Old 08-15-2014, 01:40 PM
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I say screw the flash, stretch it out 18", polish the frame and swingarm and then bedazzle the shit out of it.

Bling > Zing

:)

To clarify the fueling. It is (loosely) based on the fueling that was made with a M4 GP slip on when I dyno tuned for my bike. Some people get hung up that the map was made with an M4 GP slip on and maybe it's my bad for not elaborating more. I took that map, then based on what I've seen with other 10s I've worked with in conjunction with my own findings from my own bike running a link+stock can combo, Taylormade and then the M4, and adjusted the fueling to be a conservative tune that would be sufficient for any slip on or those who are running a stock setup. It's not tuned very aggressively but the AFR curve is definitely tightened up over stock fueling and works fine accommodating the other changes made elsewhere in the ECU.

We then ran that mapping on with another local bike fitted with a stock can to make sure it was okay and wasn't going to be too rich/lean. After that we fitted a slip on Yoshi and did some more runs. It's a good tune, but its conservative and it's a far cry from what was done with the M4 mapping on my bike before switching out to a full system. So we walked away with a good, general purpose map that will be sufficient but is by no means the very best map for everyone's bike that gets the most power; it's not meant to be. If you were to compare the mapping I send ECUs out with to the map I used when I had an M4 there is considerable difference.

So yeah its a good, conservative tune but in by no means the absolute be all end all for each and every bike out there. Coming up with a tune that is absolutely perfect for each and every individual bike out there is impossible. But you can develop good solid tunes for everyone that can be adjusted further by dyno techs so your bike is running absolutely the best it can be. And thats what this is and why I always recommend people to go seek out additional tuning afterwards. Some people have been running the same fueling for a year with no issues and they're content with the bike as is. People who go for additional tuning, have been picking up an average of 3-5 extra horsepower on top of what my flash does. So after that you can be rest assured your bike is tuned and running perfectly.

So my opinion... my slip on fueling... additional dyno tuning later.

We'll talk more tomorrow Stealth. Do you have Google Hangouts? Reason I ask is I can show you "in person" via screen share what was done in the ECU by that other company and compare it to my flash.
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post #9 of 23 Old 08-15-2014, 03:11 PM
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Originally Posted by SkyDork View Post
How would they do that? They most likely can't reflash the ECU and adding timing would require another piggyback unit and still wouldn't give you everything the reflash does.

No, it's better to reflash it and get everything all-in-one.
the tuner i work with does the flash work on the dyno. if you're getting a flash that wasn't fine tuned on a dyno, you're wasting your money

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZX10RArcher View Post
I say screw the flash, stretch it out 18", polish the frame and swingarm and then bedazzle the shit out of it.

Bling > Zing

:)

To clarify the fueling. It is (loosely) based on the fueling that was made with a M4 GP slip on when I dyno tuned for my bike. Some people get hung up that the map was made with an M4 GP slip on and maybe it's my bad for not elaborating more. I took that map, then based on what I've seen with other 10s I've worked with in conjunction with my own findings from my own bike running a link+stock can combo, Taylormade and then the M4, and adjusted the fueling to be a conservative tune that would be sufficient for any slip on or those who are running a stock setup. It's not tuned very aggressively but the AFR curve is definitely tightened up over stock fueling and works fine accommodating the other changes made elsewhere in the ECU.

We then ran that mapping on with another local bike fitted with a stock can to make sure it was okay and wasn't going to be too rich/lean. After that we fitted a slip on Yoshi and did some more runs. It's a good tune, but its conservative and it's a far cry from what was done with the M4 mapping on my bike before switching out to a full system. So we walked away with a good, general purpose map that will be sufficient but is by no means the very best map for everyone's bike that gets the most power; it's not meant to be. If you were to compare the mapping I send ECUs out with to the map I used when I had an M4 there is considerable difference.

So yeah its a good, conservative tune but in by no means the absolute be all end all for each and every bike out there. Coming up with a tune that is absolutely perfect for each and every individual bike out there is impossible. But you can develop good solid tunes for everyone that can be adjusted further by dyno techs so your bike is running absolutely the best it can be. And thats what this is and why I always recommend people to go seek out additional tuning afterwards. Some people have been running the same fueling for a year with no issues and they're content with the bike as is. People who go for additional tuning, have been picking up an average of 3-5 extra horsepower on top of what my flash does. So after that you can be rest assured your bike is tuned and running perfectly.

So my opinion... my slip on fueling... additional dyno tuning later.

We'll talk more tomorrow Stealth. Do you have Google Hangouts? Reason I ask is I can show you "in person" via screen share what was done in the ECU by that other company and compare it to my flash.
pretty much what ^ said.

get the flash. CHECK the fueling, and if it needs it, dyno tune later.
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post #10 of 23 Old 08-15-2014, 03:15 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by ZX10RArcher View Post
I say screw the flash, stretch it out 18", polish the frame and swingarm and then bedazzle the shit out of it.

Bling > Zing

:)

To clarify the fueling. It is (loosely) based on the fueling that was made with a M4 GP slip on when I dyno tuned for my bike. Some people get hung up that the map was made with an M4 GP slip on and maybe it's my bad for not elaborating more. I took that map, then based on what I've seen with other 10s I've worked with in conjunction with my own findings from my own bike running a link+stock can combo, Taylormade and then the M4, and adjusted the fueling to be a conservative tune that would be sufficient for any slip on or those who are running a stock setup. It's not tuned very aggressively but the AFR curve is definitely tightened up over stock fueling and works fine accommodating the other changes made elsewhere in the ECU.

We then ran that mapping on with another local bike fitted with a stock can to make sure it was okay and wasn't going to be too rich/lean. After that we fitted a slip on Yoshi and did some more runs. It's a good tune, but its conservative and it's a far cry from what was done with the M4 mapping on my bike before switching out to a full system. So we walked away with a good, general purpose map that will be sufficient but is by no means the very best map for everyone's bike that gets the most power; it's not meant to be. If you were to compare the mapping I send ECUs out with to the map I used when I had an M4 there is considerable difference.

So yeah its a good, conservative tune but in by no means the absolute be all end all for each and every bike out there. Coming up with a tune that is absolutely perfect for each and every individual bike out there is impossible. But you can develop good solid tunes for everyone that can be adjusted further by dyno techs so your bike is running absolutely the best it can be. And thats what this is and why I always recommend people to go seek out additional tuning afterwards. Some people have been running the same fueling for a year with no issues and they're content with the bike as is. People who go for additional tuning, have been picking up an average of 3-5 extra horsepower on top of what my flash does. So after that you can be rest assured your bike is tuned and running perfectly.

So my opinion... my slip on fueling... additional dyno tuning later.

We'll talk more tomorrow Stealth. Do you have Google Hangouts? Reason I ask is I can show you "in person" via screen share what was done in the ECU by that other company and compare it to my flash.


Yes!!! Superglue and sequin's it is then!
(Sad thing is, I bet a girl somewhere has actually done that to her bike)

Seriously, Thanks everyone for your input.

Archer, I appreciate you clarifying everything more for me, as I didn't really fully understand how you set up your tune.
I am leaning torward just re-mapping now and fine tuning later.
Just out of curiosity, have you tested your Euro flash tune vs your Aggressive tune?
(The Euro bike has no cat from the factory right? <----Not sure.)
If so, what kind of power differences have you found between them?
Thanks!





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