Alright Tuning Wizards I need your help. - Kawasaki ZX-10R.net
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post #1 of 24 Old 12-17-2008, 07:56 PM Thread Starter
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Alright Tuning Wizards I need your help.

Alright, I pulled my secondaries on my 04, I at first did not change the map, the map i was running ws the Akra EVO map from powercommanders website, all was fine the bike ran good, the bike started fine.
I pulled the secondaries and this thing now takes forever to start the first start of the day, I have to crank if for a good 8 seconds to get it to fire. I have actually ran the battery down trying to get it to fire.
I have tried several different maps, including a map for a Arrow full system with the flies removed and it does nothing to help the bike start eaiser, the ridability is fine after its running, I put a zero map and same thing, hard start.

IT kind of makes sense in my head, the flies being closed normaly takes air away on start up, acting kind of like a makeshift choke, so removing them, would maybe cause a lean condition at 0% throttle.

DO you guys think adding a few percentage points at and below say 1300rpm at 0% throttle would help this or am I wasting time?

No place around to get a custom tune so I am kinda stuck. I am thinking maybe just put the flies back in, honestly I did not notice that much difference anyway.

Am I on the right track or am I oppisite, do I need to take fuel away to make the bike fire easier. Or am I totally barking up the wrong tree, and have another issue, maybe need new plugs?

I definately noticed this problem after I pulled the flies, oh and I did the quick throttle mod at the same time, could that have anything to do with it, throttle cable slack is within spec.


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post #2 of 24 Old 12-17-2008, 08:13 PM
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I'm not sure on the flies thing, I wouldn't think they'd make a difference seeing as how limited air flow is with both the "real" butterflies closed and the secondaries. However I noticed this too, and it's still that way but it might be that along with the totally opened exhaust on my bike. One time it even died after I was blipping the throttle at low rpms and it was hot in traffic. I wouldn't think that adding fuel would hurt it so it's worth a shot, if you think the way the choke works but what is it going to do to the plugs long term?

I can't stress finding a good tuner but you've already mentioned that's not going to work, and seeing as how it's somewhat easy you're not at a loss if you change the map.

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post #3 of 24 Old 12-17-2008, 08:14 PM
 
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Hope you figure out what it is. I didn't think the fuel table could be thrown THAT far out of specs to have hard starting that bad.
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post #4 of 24 Old 12-17-2008, 08:23 PM
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Subscribe.. Same boat...

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post #5 of 24 Old 12-17-2008, 08:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by luxurylows View Post
Subscribe.. Same boat...
You removed the secondaries and had this problem too?

C'mon who else, I haven't heard very many people speak up about this.

I suppose it is easier for the motor to suck air with them removed, so add 10% and see how it goes, if it starts normal then maybe back off a little bit until you notice it start hard again...I know it'll be a PITA, trial and error can sometimes suck but it's all in what you want. I'm hoping that the Autotune that Bazzaz has, or if Dynojet's comes out in due time, that they'll be able to take care of ALL fuel issues, correct A/F ratio from 0%-100% throttle.

At its core, the Ninja ZX-10R is a motorcycle built for the accomplished rider who can fully appreciate its capabilities--whether put to the test at a racetrack, or merely the focus of bench-racing conversation. It is, by all standards, the embodiment of the ultimate superbike.


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post #6 of 24 Old 12-17-2008, 08:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZX-10R_Sinner View Post
You removed the secondaries and had this problem too?

C'mon who else, I haven't heard very many people speak up about this.

I suppose it is easier for the motor to suck air with them removed, so add 10% and see how it goes, if it starts normal then maybe back off a little bit until you notice it start hard again...I know it'll be a PITA, trial and error can sometimes suck but it's all in what you want. I'm hoping that the Autotune that Bazzaz has, or if Dynojet's comes out in due time, that they'll be able to take care of ALL fuel issues, correct A/F ratio from 0%-100% throttle.
Yah I just thought it was cuz the weather got cold and fast (Canada).. Then I had the bike in a heated garage doing some other stuff to it and it took a hood 5 seconds to start.. It was almost instant before..

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post #7 of 24 Old 12-17-2008, 08:38 PM
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Quote:
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Yah I just thought it was cuz the weather got cold and fast (Canada).. Then I had the bike in a heated garage doing some other stuff to it and it took a hood 5 seconds to start.. It was almost instant before..
Yeah before mine was only 2, MAYBE 3 seconds on a cold start up, sometimes probably not even 2 seconds. Now I wouldn't say that it's 8 seconds but it's noticeable harder to start. With it dieing on me that one time blipping the throttle I'd have to say that fueling probably is off.

Now, (I wish Ivan would clue us in) we all know of this fuel cut right? Ivans TRE eliminates this fuel cut when you let off the throttle, so I'm wondering if it's something to do with that. I plan on getting that TRE from him so I'll see if that works, if not then I'll mess with the fueling, unfortunately this won't take place for another 4-5 months.

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post #8 of 24 Old 12-17-2008, 09:22 PM Thread Starter
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All you guys that are having issues, have the flies out?

I am goingto change nothing and put the flies back in and see if that changes it back to easy start. When I say 8 seconds, that may be a little high, but the first push of the starter, I let it crank for a few seconds and nothing, let off hit it agin, sometimes it fires up the second push of the button, sometimes it takes a third, real anoying, I at first thought the cold might have something to do with it as well, but if you guys all notices this and have no flies in, that would be the ticket. Bike runs like a raped ape once started though, seems like good fueling all through the rev range.


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post #9 of 24 Old 12-18-2008, 12:22 AM
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...not much for a solution, but I can tell you WHY it hard starts when the motor is "cold" without the secondaries: They function as the choke. No shit, that's all it is, you were spot on... If you've ever cold-started the bike with the airbox lid off you can see them doing the cold start-up routine.

Even if it's not too cold out the problem can manifest like you say. You need a pretty damn rich mixture to get the motor to fire when it is cold... the secondaries adjust the airflow untill the ECU gets a satisfactory number from the coolant sensor, along with minor adjustments to the fuel map, thus removing the little annoying lever from the left clip-on. :) Once you get it to fire once you pretty much have enough heat in the chambers to get it to fire quickly again, even if the motor/coolant itself is still "cold": this is why it starts right back up once you get it to fire.

You won't be able to tune it out with a PC3/bazzaz... those things don't have the ability to change mixture/airflow at that low a RPM (cranking RPM)... and once it DOES fire the problem is pretty much a moot point. If you had the ability to richen it up around 250-750 RPM you might be able to make it work..... but then you risk OVERFUELING on hot start-ups. Triumph had this problem when they first started using FI on the speed tripples (Sagem, I believe?). I watched a nice speed tripple hydrolock on fuel and bend a rod over exactly this dilema (the retards that programmed the managment software had it set up so that every start defaulted to a full cold-start fueling, as they had no "secondaries" to do the work with air). You want to talk about a pissed off owner......

I wish I had a good suggestion for a fix...... other than to put the flies back in. :(

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Last edited by SpazOnaZX; 12-18-2008 at 12:34 AM.
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post #10 of 24 Old 12-18-2008, 07:10 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SpazOnaZX View Post
...not much for a solution, but I can tell you WHY it hard starts when the motor is "cold" without the secondaries: They function as the choke. No shit, that's all it is, you were spot on... If you've ever cold-started the bike with the airbox lid off you can see them doing the cold start-up routine.

Even if it's not too cold out the problem can manifest like you say. You need a pretty damn rich mixture to get the motor to fire when it is cold... the secondaries adjust the airflow untill the ECU gets a satisfactory number from the coolant sensor, along with minor adjustments to the fuel map, thus removing the little annoying lever from the left clip-on. :) Once you get it to fire once you pretty much have enough heat in the chambers to get it to fire quickly again, even if the motor/coolant itself is still "cold": this is why it starts right back up once you get it to fire.

You won't be able to tune it out with a PC3/bazzaz... those things don't have the ability to change mixture/airflow at that low a RPM (cranking RPM)... and once it DOES fire the problem is pretty much a moot point. If you had the ability to richen it up around 250-750 RPM you might be able to make it work..... but then you risk OVERFUELING on hot start-ups. Triumph had this problem when they first started using FI on the speed tripples (Sagem, I believe?). I watched a nice speed tripple hydrolock on fuel and bend a rod over exactly this dilema (the retards that programmed the managment software had it set up so that every start defaulted to a full cold-start fueling, as they had no "secondaries" to do the work with air). You want to talk about a pissed off owner......

I wish I had a good suggestion for a fix...... other than to put the flies back in. :(

Thats exactly what I was afraid, of,i just wanted someone to confirm my theroy. I think the flies are going back in. Not really worth the trouble for me anyway. Since I really don't have a custpm tuner handy, I probably am not getting much out of pulling the flies anyway. Thanks again dude.


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