Slicks w/o warmers - Kawasaki ZX-10R.net
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post #1 of 32 Old 03-12-2012, 10:43 PM Thread Starter
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Question Slicks w/o warmers

Do slick tires always require tire warmers?

Can tire warmers be used with street tires? Would it improve anything?
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post #2 of 32 Old 03-12-2012, 10:47 PM
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I believe tire warmer's are used on slicks to get them up to temp before heading out on the track, and then in between sessions to keep them warm as they have less heat cycles. I doubt it would hurt to use them on the street.

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post #3 of 32 Old 03-12-2012, 11:17 PM Thread Starter
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I doubt it would hurt to use them on the street.
I have street tires on my track bike right now. I'm not sure if I want to buy two sets of racing tires: for dry and wet weather, so I'm contemplating just using street tires for track days.
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post #4 of 32 Old 03-13-2012, 12:22 AM
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TIre warmers can be used in any tire, besides rain tires.

They just help to keep the tire warm so you can push first lap out already, usually race tires take a lot more to warm up than street tires, so you would be wasting track time trying to warm them up.
But the main reason is to keep the tire from hear cycling, some race tires dont like it.

I think Pirelli claims that this slick does not require tire warmers.
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post #5 of 32 Old 03-13-2012, 09:13 AM
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You can run any slick without tire warmers, you just need to make sure you give the tires a couple laps to come into temperature so they're safe to push it on.

Tire warmers will offer no real benefit on street tires, I wouldn't waste your time.

As for using them to reduce heat cycles and prolong tire life there is some truth to that. But it adds up to such a small savings that it may not be worth it.

I rarely use them at a trackday unless I've got a good group of buddies I'm riding with that want to push hard right out of the gate. If I'm racing they're always on as every lap counts.

As for using street tires at a trackday depending on your pace you should be fine. Just do some research on the correct track tire pressures as they will be considerably lower than what you run on the street.

If you've got them already they won't hurt anything by using them regardless of the tire. But I wouldn't run out and spend the money on them if you're just doing trackdays, they really aren't necessary.
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post #6 of 32 Old 03-13-2012, 09:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SlowerThanU View Post
You can run any slick without tire warmers, you just need to make sure you give the tires a couple laps to come into temperature so they're safe to push it on.

Tire warmers will offer no real benefit on street tires, I wouldn't waste your time.

As for using them to reduce heat cycles and prolong tire life there is some truth to that. But it adds up to such a small savings that it may not be worth it.

I rarely use them at a trackday unless I've got a good group of buddies I'm riding with that want to push hard right out of the gate. If I'm racing they're always on as every lap counts.

As for using street tires at a trackday depending on your pace you should be fine. Just do some research on the correct track tire pressures as they will be considerably lower than what you run on the street.

If you've got them already they won't hurt anything by using them regardless of the tire. But I wouldn't run out and spend the money on them if you're just doing trackdays, they really aren't necessary.
In a 15-20 minute track session it's very unlikely that a rider will get a set of slicks up to ideal operating temperature. Even with warmers most riders will lose temperature in their tires the longer they are on the track. In ambient temperatures below 20C i struggle to keep my Dunlop rear hot. Below 10C it's impossible, I can't keep heat in the tire. The longer I'm on the track the colder the tire gets.

It takes 45 minutes to heat soak a tire and rim with a set of warmers that are heating to 80C. How warm can they possibly get on a race track when you're unable to push them because they're cold?

Dunlop rears are very sensitive to temperature too. If you're using a soft or medium rear and can't keep it hot you'll just end up destroying it. The Medium+ rear is great though, very resistant to tearing. In colder temps you actually want to use the harder Dunlop rear. Couter-intuitive, yes.

Operating temp for street tires is lower than for real race tires. Unless you have digital warmers and can set them to a lower temperature they will be over heating. Race tires are meant to be used with warmers and are sensitive to heat cycling. Street or street/track hybrid tires are not meant to be used with warmers and are less sensitive to heat cycling.

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Last edited by caboose; 03-13-2012 at 09:32 AM.
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post #7 of 32 Old 03-13-2012, 09:31 AM Thread Starter
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Thank you for all the information. No, I don't have warmers. I don't even have a generator, so the whole setup would cost me a bit...
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post #8 of 32 Old 03-13-2012, 10:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by caboose View Post
In a 15-20 minute track session it's very unlikely that a rider will get a set of slicks up to ideal operating temperature. Even with warmers most riders will lose temperature in their tires the longer they are on the track. In ambient temperatures below 20C i struggle to keep my Dunlop rear hot. Below 10C it's impossible, I can't keep heat in the tire. The longer I'm on the track the colder the tire gets.

It takes 45 minutes to heat soak a tire and rim with a set of warmers that are heating to 80C. How warm can they possibly get on a race track when you're unable to push them because they're cold?

Dunlop rears are very sensitive to temperature too. If you're using a soft or medium rear and can't keep it hot you'll just end up destroying it. The Medium+ rear is great though, very resistant to tearing. In colder temps you actually want to use the harder Dunlop rear. Couter-intuitive, yes..
The time it takes to get a tire to temperature on warmers vs. on track are very different because of the loads on the tire while riding. I've tested this with a temp gauge coming off track and have had no issues getting tires up to optimal temp on a normal weather day at an advanced rider pace. At a trackday I can get on my normal pace within two laps with no warmers. That being said I'm no Ben Spies so your results may vary.

There are obviously a lot of variables as you mention especially when it comes to tire compound, ambient temp and the riders ability. Yes, an advanced rider running a hard compound tire on a 55F day is going to have problems if they're not using warmers. But in my experience riding/racing/instructing most people do not need or benefit from using tire warmers at a trackday. As you point out, most riders will actually lose temp in their tires because they don't push them hard enough to keep them hot. But if they can't go fast enough to keep them hot then they aren't going fast enough to NEED them hot.

The one thing that can't be accounted for when it comes to warmers is the between the ears effect. If ,as a rider, you feel safer running tire warmers no amount of data indicating other wise is going to keep you from doing it. If that's the case then rock on!
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post #9 of 32 Old 03-13-2012, 11:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SlowerThanU View Post
The time it takes to get a tire to temperature on warmers vs. on track are very different because of the loads on the tire while riding. I've tested this with a temp gauge coming off track and have had no issues getting tires up to optimal temp on a normal weather day at an advanced rider pace. At a trackday I can get on my normal pace within two laps with no warmers. That being said I'm no Ben Spies so your results may vary.

There are obviously a lot of variables as you mention especially when it comes to tire compound, ambient temp and the riders ability. Yes, an advanced rider running a hard compound tire on a 55F day is going to have problems if they're not using warmers. But in my experience riding/racing/instructing most people do not need or benefit from using tire warmers at a trackday. As you point out, most riders will actually lose temp in their tires because they don't push them hard enough to keep them hot. But if they can't go fast enough to keep them hot then they aren't going fast enough to NEED them hot.

The one thing that can't be accounted for when it comes to warmers is the between the ears effect. If ,as a rider, you feel safer running tire warmers no amount of data indicating other wise is going to keep you from doing it. If that's the case then rock on!
You measured the surface temp of the tire. That doesn't give you any information about how warm the carcass or the rim are.

Thats what I mean by 'heat soak'. It's one thing to get the surface of the tire up to 60C, it's an entirely other thing to get the whole tire up to temp as well as the rim. An aluminum rim acts as a heat sink when you're warming up the tires, as you're riding and working the tire and heating the surface up the rim is pulling that heat away from it.

I stand by what I wrote.

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post #10 of 32 Old 03-13-2012, 11:47 AM
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You measured the surface temp of the tire. That doesn't give you any information about how warm the carcass or the rim are.

Thats what I mean by 'heat soak'. It's one thing to get the surface of the tire up to 60C, it's an entirely other thing to get the whole tire up to temp as well as the rim. An aluminum rim acts as a heat sink when you're warming up the tires, as you're riding and working the tire and heating the surface up the rim is pulling that heat away from it.

I stand by what I wrote.
I don't necessarily disagree with you, I just don't think it applies to all riders all the time.

As far as measuring the temp of the tire I use a probe a few MM into the tire, the only way I know how to measure them I guess. It's the same way my tire guy measures them at the track.

I've always used the temp of the rim as a gauge that my tire warmers are working but have never heard it has a major effect on the performance of the tire once it's up to temp.

Again, not disagreeing with you at all. But if you're running around a track 20-30 seconds off the pace I just don't see the benefit.
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