Gen 2: 2006-2007 Thinking about mods - Page 2 - Kawasaki ZX-10R.net
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post #11 of 25 Old 05-26-2019, 02:05 AM Thread Starter
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The pump swap seems unnecessary, as the intermittent acceleration stumble still there, one time it happened in 1st gear just after taking a left in an intersection - it was a light acceleration.

So yesterday I took out the pump assy, cut a few mils from plastic housing to make room for the suction filter's plastic protector (and to have the filter not sit on the very bottom. Wanted to see if the pumps okay (have a denso from a speed triple, the oem and the walbro, all worked okay in a bike). The denso pump was the weakest, took long time for it to fully displace air from the clear tube I attached to the outlet; the oem pump was a bit better, and faster (I was lazy so I didn't put on the fpr with a hose -that would make the pump work against pressure ~3 bar, then I think the fpr would let out the excess), but the walbro was at another level, I couldn't hold my fingertip to the outlet hose end as the pressure made it to spray. I also had another (speed triple) fuel filter sock, both let the pumps work on their level, so my oem filter doesn't have any invisible clogging (it was very clean visually).

Will go for a ride with my friend, will see if I only have the stumbling, or the intermittent full shut off / stall problem also there. No code apart from my diconnected / unfused O2 sensors, so having this issues is very annoying - I like to go for day long rides far from home, but I cannot while these didn't get solved.

Kawasaki made their TPS sensors unchangeable (at least in the manual; they say that one needs to buy a complete throttle body assy for $$$$), but it looks like (in the service manual of course) the K9 gixxer's TPS mounting hole & voltage range is the same, so if I check TPS sometime and it's faulty I think I give that a shot before I look for another tb-assy.
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post #12 of 25 Old 05-26-2019, 01:47 PM Thread Starter
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We went for a ride with my buddy, and the stumbling problem became repeatable (from intermittent).

It looked like I have the issue when (the disconnected and heating fuse removed) O2 FI codes go away (which shouldn't go away as I made it permanent. From the manual:
"When the engine load is light like at idling or low speed, the ECU determines the injection quantity by calculating from the throttle vacuum (inlet air pressure sensor output voltage) and engine speed (crankshaft sensor output
voltage). This method is called D-J method. As the engine speed increases, and the engine load turns middle to heavy, the ECU determines the injection quantity by calculating from the throttle opening (throttle sensor output voltage) and the engine speed. This method is called α-N method."

I think that the transition between those methods around 4500-5000 rpm, as when I revved the engine to that rpm range in any gear, and anyhow (acceleration and then hold steady, try accelerate thru it slowly or hard), the FI light stopped blinking and the bike surged with steady throttle, stumbled lightly @ light acceleration, and stumbled hard - almost like stall like if you kill the engine and while engine braking you open the throttle - when I've tried accelerate hard. Always recovered, the more steady I held the throttle the faster. After 3-4 stumbles it even accepted full throttle, but when the speed become steadier from acceleration or some deceleration, the FI blinking came back and only gone away if I tried to stay at or above 4500 rpm -for example cruising @ 4k rpm the FI blinking there always, and no stumbling - it worked fine.

So I think it's the TPS sensor (main) will check that out. And because the manual says:
"Do not remove or adjust the main throttle sensor. It has been adjusted and set with precision at the
factory."
+
"If the reading is out of the range, replace the throttle body assy (see Throttle Body Assy section).
If the reading is within the range, but the problem still exists, replace the ECU (see ECU section)."
kawasaki's solution to either the TPS or the ECU will cost so much money..

But if the TPS, then it looks like the K9 gixxer 1000 have the same (by the pics, & the voltage range in it's manual) TPS sensor(s) like the 10R. Part#: 13580-18G00-000 (if mine shot then first I try to swap with the secondary TPS sensor, then I will look for a used throttle assy but if there's none, or costs too much money, I give the gixxer tps a try)
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post #13 of 25 Old 05-27-2019, 09:43 AM Thread Starter
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Sorry, but I don't think that the gixxer tps sensors useable: on videos it looks like the throttle plates rotate to the opposite direction, so the sensors too.
But will check that the older models ('03 Z1000, 636, etc) throttle bodies & their sensors work the same or not.

My other mistake was when I checked the fuel pumps, I thought that the red wire is the 12 V one on (my very old) PC power supply I used to power the pumps, but really I only gave them 5 V. Anyway, the Walbro GSS342 washed away the OEM pumps I have, no wonder that it's way more audible in the fuel tank.

Maybe if I get home from work I'll do the checks for the sensors from the service manual.
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post #14 of 25 Old 05-27-2019, 11:23 AM
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iv got a spare tps if you want i can post it for the cost of postage. Your posting along here and nobody is helping. Down side is im in Croatia until Friday but will ship exped on Saturday for you.
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post #15 of 25 Old 05-28-2019, 09:22 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by michael4012 View Post
iv got a spare tps if you want i can post it for the cost of postage. Your posting along here and nobody is helping. Down side is im in Croatia until Friday but will ship exped on Saturday for you.
That's most generous Sir, thank you very much! ;) You're in one of the countries next to us :) Work or holiday?
I will accept your kind offer if I made it sure that the TPS sensor is the faulty part. I haven't checked it yet, as I'm working overtime on most days.
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post #16 of 25 Old 05-29-2019, 04:39 AM
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im probably as far from Hungry in Rovinj, Croatia is a strange shape on the map, dictated by history of course, and yes im working. Back. to Antwerp on Friday, but i am thinking about ripping down to these parts on my bike August-September time
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post #17 of 25 Old 05-30-2019, 02:51 AM
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Actually i just saw these on ebay this probably a better way forward for you that price.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Kawasaki-...AOSwOsdcwFA J
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post #18 of 25 Old 06-01-2019, 08:21 AM Thread Starter
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Yep, that's a good price.


Now about my problem:
The symptom is now repeatable: when the engine rpm reaches a certain value (sometimes 4500 or just 4k rpm - it doesn't changes between the two one or another) or try to accelerate above, then depending on the throttle position (for example try to cruise at that rpm or trying to accelerate way above) it seems like the fuel delivery cuts out soft or hard until the rpm drops below. Not caused by the TPS sensors.


I suspected the main throttle position sensor - maybe worn that region - so I took both off (secondary too) to see if I can disassemble, check & clean it inside. (....) Long story short, I put back the sensors approx the same position with the factory paint marks. I think it wasn't precisely adjusted back, because at around 2200 rpm the engine got a bit gargling, but nothing serious issue came from my careless action. The stumbling at around 4k rpm was also there, just like last week. So I decided by the service manual's DFI self diag table, to disconnect both sensors and see how the ECU manages without their signal. (I had FI codes of both sensors & 67 which is O2 sensor heaters as the fuse still removed) Looked like a solution first, it worked flawless, a bit laggy acceleration compared to problem-free state, but very usable 200 km/h no problem. So refueled it and headed back home - then minddle on that 6 km trip the stumbling came back - also the disconnected O2 sensor's FI codes.
Left everything just like that and went for a (180 kilometers) ride with my buddy. The only new thing with the symptom that the bike wont recover after holding the throttle thru 3-4 stumbles just like as the ECU cannot know that the throttle plates open, so it won't deliver fuel again, until the rpm drops. (last weekend's ride showed that with TPS signal the ECU started to deliver fuel again after a few stumbles until the engine load was high, then it started the cycle again above 4500 rpm). So it still could be the ECU or the way it's programmed, not the TPS, but also could be a few other sensors...
It's like a cruel sentence, sitting on a rocket that's normally capable to do around 300 km/h, which only can go with 100 or 115 (60-70 MPH) 'till it's cut's back the fun...
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post #19 of 25 Old 06-07-2019, 03:12 AM Thread Starter
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A dynamometer tech said as tip, that he's sure that O2 can cause this stumbling/hesitation.
Since the manual states:
" The oxygen sensor #1 (plus the #2 too - Laczi) is active and sensor must send signals (output voltage) continuously to the ECU. "
+
"If the oxygen sensor #1 is not activated, the ECU stops feedback mode of the oxygen sensor #1 and #2."
I would think that it cannot cause problems (and also that I bought the bike with O2 FI code, and it worked flawlessly until spring got warmer), but I ordered 2 pieces of O2 eliminators, and will see if that's the solution.
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post #20 of 25 Old 06-10-2019, 05:17 AM Thread Starter
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I put in the O2 eliminators and wanted to refuel the bike - but the engine ran so shite, that it made me to get home. It misfired, ran like a thumper instead of an inline-4, etc below 3000 rpm, and had to adjust the idle higher.

Got home, took it apart, set the main tps ~ 0,8 V @ idle ( let the engine ran while I adjusted it: that was the highest value that didn't dropped the idle rpm: around 0,84 V the rpm dropped significantly; too low values like 0,34 V didn't caused noticeable issues but because most kawasaki manuals for other models contain higher idle TPS voltage values I decided to go as high as possible from the 0,65 V I set by the manual), also checked &adjusted the other tps (secondary), but only by the paint mark.
I really don't know why it started to run better - maybe the Long Term Fuel Trim or something like that amplified the problem until the O2 eliminator's false signal made the ECU to correct the stored values - because even when I disconnected the two tps the engine missed a bit from time to time @ idle .
Anyway, finally it idled fine so I put it together & went for a ride again.

The other test ride after the adjustment went very well, low rpm cruise was smooth, and after the refuel, the higher rpm cruise was also fine: no stumbling, no FI light. So if it stays good even on hotter days then the bad O2 sensors caused all this stumbling problems even when they were completely disconnected. It was sooo god to ride again @ any rpm.
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