Gen 4: 2011-2015 C3L1CA's Street/Strip Wanna Be Build Thread - Page 21 - Kawasaki ZX-10R.net
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post #201 of 243 Old 04-09-2019, 10:31 AM
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Originally Posted by C3L1CA View Post
Question if anybody smarter than me looks at this. From what I could find on reading the two numbers added plus 180 should be close to the stock duration of the cam. From the race kit manual it says stock exhaust duration is 293 degrees but my numbers only show 247.5. I remember the last time I did this the numbers were similar but I didn't do as much reading last and didn't think twice about it.
It's all about at what lift you measure the duration. In the car industry they tend to measure @ .050" open/close; you end up with a lot shorter 'advertised' duration that way as opposed to measuring at a point when the lobe just starts to lift, as this makes the measurements easier and more consistent. The cam in my old big block was sold as a 286/292 duration, but at .050 it was actually 248/254 (see link for reference, the cam card lists 2 sets of duration on there: 23-702-9(Three Bolt) - Xtreme Energy? Street Mechanical Roller Camshafts ) Calculating the duration from the moment the lobe moves the valve gives really cool, big duration numbers... but at that point you have to start figuring in valve lash and engine temperature if you want to be really accurate.... it's just easier and a bit more 'honest' to standardize the measurement at a given lift point. :)
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Last edited by SpazOnaZX; 04-09-2019 at 10:35 AM.
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post #202 of 243 Old 04-09-2019, 10:44 AM Thread Starter
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It's all about at what lift you measure the duration. In the car industry they tend to measure @ .050" open/close; you end up with a lot shorter 'advertised' duration that way as opposed to measuring at a point when the lobe just starts to lift, as this makes the measurements easier and more consistent. The cam in my old big block was sold as a 286/292 duration, but at .050 it was actually 248/254 (see link for reference, the cam card lists 2 sets of duration on there: 23-702-9(Three Bolt) - Xtreme Energy? Street Mechanical Roller Camshafts ) Calculating the duration from the moment the lobe moves the valve gives really cool, big duration numbers... but at that point you have to start figuring in valve lash and engine temperature if you want to be really accurate.... it's just easier and a bit more 'honest' to standardize the measurement at a given lift point. :)
You da man!

That makes sense the way you explained it. I could've sworn I read somewhere that you should double check and should have the same duration. But maybe that was on an aftermarket cam that they give those .050" duration like on the link you had provided vs the overall duration.

Just me thinking outloud as I'm an engine internal n00b but find it interesting. If I were to say have my valve clearances set to exactly zero, then I measured the degree when the valve just started to open up and measured right before the valve closed I'd probably get the advertised duration.

Thank you!!
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post #203 of 243 Old 04-10-2019, 12:47 AM
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U have found 247,5 cause u are measure the duration for 1mm of lift.

I think Kawasaki measure it to 0.1mm of lift .
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post #204 of 243 Old 04-10-2019, 07:54 AM
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measuring at .040-.050 lift is moreaccurate as cam lobe has passed thru the soft cushioning opening/closing ramps built in for longer cam/valve train life. not hardley any flow occuring at these slow opening/closing lifts. race cams are shorter opening ramps acclerating the valve to higher lifts quicker where more flow occurs and holding it open at full lift longer where max flow occurs for best cyl filling. finding accurate tdc is absolutley necessary degreeing. also u should know exact cam lift when setting up dial indicator. to insure indicator setup accurate u should roll engine thru and check indicated cam lift. pointer angle off will skew numbers several degrees. indicator should be set up very close to valve stem angle. measured cam lift should be within just thousands max of advertised lift less lash clereance. .385 cam, .007 valve clereance, nets .378 net lift, i'm looking for measured lift within .005 of that number, less better. i degree all cams with running valve lash, as that's the way they operate real world. i'm not seeing what lift u checked u checked duration at, ur numbers add up, but that duration looks high.
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Last edited by gaz; 04-10-2019 at 08:01 AM.
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post #205 of 243 Old 04-10-2019, 08:23 AM Thread Starter
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U have found 247,5 cause u are measure the duration for 1mm of lift.

I think Kawasaki measure it to 0.1mm of lift .
Good know! I was measuring at .040" so it makes sense.

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measuring at .040-.050 lift is moreaccurate as cam lobe has passed thru the soft cushioning opening/closing ramps built in for longer cam/valve train life. not hardley any flow occuring at these slow opening/closing lifts. race cams are shorter opening ramps acclerating the valve to higher lifts quicker where more flow occurs and holding it open at full lift longer where max flow occurs for best cyl filling. finding accurate tdc is absolutley necessary degreeing. also u should know exact cam lift when setting up dial indicator. to insure indicator setup accurate u should roll engine thru and check indicated cam lift. pointer angle off will skew numbers several degrees. indicator should be set up very close to valve stem angle. measured cam lift should be within just thousands max of advertised lift less lash clereance. .385 cam, .007 valve clereance, nets .378 net lift, i'm looking for measured lift within .005 of that number, less better. i degree all cams with running valve lash, as that's the way they operate real world. i'm not seeing what lift u checked u checked duration at, ur numbers add up, but that duration looks high.
Thank you for all the info Jim, your wealth of knowledge honestly amazes me!

When I was degreeing the exhaust cam I do remember watching the dial indicator at max lift and seeing it max out at .350 and remember thinking hey that was a nice easy number to remember. When looking at the race manual it says stock exhaust lift is 9.1mm or google translate says .3583". Then I believe my valve clearance was .21mm or .0083". So I think when I did the exhaust cam my dial indicator was set up pretty good.


I tried checking piston to valve clearance last night on the exhaust cam and the clearances were too tight. Then I looked at my makeshift extension (threaded rod of not the exact thread pitch) and it wasn't perfectly straight and was worried that it could be skewing my numbers. I'm seeing if anybody I know locally has some dial indicator extensions, otherwise I'll order some on amazon but those wont be here until Monday. I need the extensions as the dial indicators I have wont clear the tool to get an accurate reading.

My whole house has been passing around a cold bug so maybe a few days of catching up on sleep might not be a bad thing either. I might just try to get the new brake lines on and new swing arm on as well if I have to wait on those extension rods.
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post #206 of 243 Old 04-10-2019, 08:39 AM
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I always measure at 1mm =0.039".....

never missed a beat.. with the cams like they operate.
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post #207 of 243 Old 04-10-2019, 09:07 AM
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duration #'s at .040 probabley pretty close as u read them, just degreed some 14r cams last week noting duration at .040 243 degrees on both stock cams, 236 @.050 with .008 valve lash. what ptv did u come up with on ur ex at degreed #'s? decked ur head .015 correct? valve job sunk valves probabley .008 so net ptv only changed less than .010.
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post #208 of 243 Old 04-10-2019, 12:25 PM Thread Starter
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I always measure at 1mm =0.039".....

never missed a beat.. with the cams like they operate.


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Originally Posted by gaz View Post
duration #'s at .040 probabley pretty close as u read them, just degreed some 14r cams last week noting duration at .040 243 degrees on both stock cams, 236 @.050 with .008 valve lash. what ptv did u come up with on ur ex at degreed #'s? decked ur head .015 correct? valve job sunk valves probabley .008 so net ptv only changed less than .010.
Would you recommend using .040 or .050 when degreeing? I would assume the math works out to the same numbers but the duration reading will be different like you posted with .050 being less duration.

I think it was like .046" and I think it the the closest at 8*BTDC. Think at 10*BTDC was pretty close to the same. But I don't really trust those numbers at my extension rod looked like it was at a bit of an angle. I also remember thinking that when I spun the motor over to make sure the indicator was moving freely that at max lift it didn't hit .35 like it was when i was degreeing the cams without my makeshift extension rod. I ordered some extension rods that should be available for me to pick up tomorrow so I'll hopefully be confident in my numbers tomorrow night.

I see in the race manual it says min valve to piston clearance on intake is 0.7mm or .028" and exhaust min is 1.2mm or .047". I had wrote down from a post when I was searching the forum that you had posted in a different thread that is too tight and recommend .050" on intake and .060" on exhaust. Are those what you would shoot for or did I copy down the wrong numbers?
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post #209 of 243 Old 04-10-2019, 02:18 PM
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post #210 of 243 Old 04-11-2019, 08:03 AM Thread Starter
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Was able to get out in the garage for a bit last night and got the front brake line on and weighed the stock brake stuff.

New line was pretty light compared to the stock line. The brocks wheel spacers came in at 3/4 ounces




Stock rotor/bolts


Stock caliper with stock brake pads in it.





Then since I can't run the stock fairings with the xxl intake and I know I wont have the time to paint my track fairings I was curious if the armour bodies front fender was lighter than stock. Since the track fairings are green might as well see if the fender was lighter and keep the matching green fender
Stock


armour bodies



saved a bit lol. I'll try and weigh the stock fairings too and the race fairings and see how much weight is saved there as well. I think I weighed it before but never wrote anything down or took pictures.


Overall figured with the no front brake and after market fender saved me 6lbs 5 3/8 ounces. Was more than I was expecting.
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