Fork modifications - Gen 1 ZX10R - Page 3 - Kawasaki ZX-10R.net
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post #21 of 49 Old 10-04-2018, 02:04 PM
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There is nothing secret about suspension. It is math and physics period.

I explain to all of my track customers what I am doing, why I am doing it and what they should be observing as an effect of the changes. All of this is clearly spelled out on my website ROGUE RACING Sportbike Mods Resources Portal

Not everybody in this world is trying to scam people of out of a buck. I always try to give people something appreciable in exchange for the money. That is why I do not revalve OEM shocks. It is a terrible return on the investment. That is the kind of work companies like Race Tech are famous for. I'm glad they offer that kind of service some people merely want a little improvement over their stock performance. Others NEED a lot of improvement and that is when they call me.
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post #22 of 49 Old 10-05-2018, 12:30 PM
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The PROS.....I use the term loosely, want you to think that you cannot make stock components work well. All of the Black Art of suspension adjustment and customization is schrouded in Mystery. Racetech has removed some of the veil of secrecy and taught some of the masses. This does not sit well with other suspension guys who are trying to make a buck. Oh well.

Can I ask what "pros" are you referring to? Qualified suspension/geometry tuners will give you an explanation why they are going a certain direction. People who throw smoke and mirrors and wont explain in depth probably don't understand the philosophies behind it. As LDH said, its math and physics, and understanding cause and effect.

The other thing people may want to think about is you upgrade components ALL THE TIME, why does suspension get put in a different category? So I ask you (rhetorical, not directed at anyone particularly)

Why don't riders use OEM tires and play with pressures to get them to work well?

Why do you change stock exhausts out, why not play with the OEM exhaust to get it to work/sound better?

Why change out master cylinders? Brake pads, flash ecus etc?

We do this to get better performance out of a motorcycle. I dont think LDH is saying don't modify your OEM suspenison, but what he is saying is it's not worth his time. And honestly I agree with him. I dont revalve shocks either, its a waste of the riders time and money compared to upgrades. And depending on the rider, i dont revalve OEM carts either. And heres why...

1.OEM shock bodies are mass produced and use lower quality materials then aftermarket (a.m.) So this means there tolerances arent as tight and they wont dissipate heat as well causing shock fade earlier.

2. Revalving a shock is like putting a Mustang engine in a Pinto. Yes the valving in the shock is better, but you're still working with weaker components. So you'll NEVER get the same performance as an A.M. shock.

3.With the exception of the new R1 OEM shocks dont have ride height adjustment, SO making geometry changes is MUCH harder then with an A.M. shock. This WILL play a part in your riding as you progress and get faster.

4. We are constantly repairing A.M. shocks for various reasons. The beauty is we can order individual parts and get the rider back on the street/track in no time. Most of the time repairing OEM requires us to find a donor shock and it becomes more expensive to fix.

5. Riders can find trackside support and springs/parts for AM components vs a resprung fork or shock. And swapping out springs is MUCH faster and easier.

6. Most of the time you can get 70 to 90% of your money back if you sell off your carts or shock. Basically a revalved fork or shock is worth no more than a 100% OEM component.

I can go on and on, but you get the point. I like to refer to suspension as the redheaded child of the motorcycle community. People bitch and complain about upgrades but wont hesitate to drop major coin on a shiny exhaust or kill multiple sets of tires and then shake their head as to why.

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post #23 of 49 Old 10-06-2018, 01:49 PM
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I agree that an Ohlins TTx shock is a more superior component design over a stock OEM unit. I also agree that you can get better performance over a stock shock in many cases with a TTX. At what cost? List price for a TTx is $1500. Who pays retail? The Pros I am referring to are Nollen, Too Tech, Racetech and Enzo etc etc. These are all top players in Motocross industry. Don't tell me Motocross has nothing to do with road race. It's all the same concepts, science and Math. According to you.....These companies have been revalving OEM component for years with great success. The revalve concept works the same for street forks and shocks. I am not discounting your talent and knowledge but don't act like you don't know these things.
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post #24 of 49 Old 10-06-2018, 02:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whiteryno111 View Post

still if I could improve the stock stuff and save a bit... mhmmhmh...

what do the pros say?
The pro's did chime in.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by LDH View Post
That is the kind of work companies like Race Tech are famous for. I'm glad they offer that kind of service some people merely want a little improvement over their stock performance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by evallarta1 View Post
Yes the valving in the shock is better,

I'd love to see a blind track test of stock, valved and Ohlins and see the lap time differences.
All 3 sets, set up as well as possible, same bike, rider, etc. would be interesting. I been on the
track with some very fast people and they have had stock->Olhins.

From a price point Ohlins the much cheaper choice over OEM forks, considering a new
set of OEMS run over $4k I'd definitely settle for the cheaper choice.
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post #25 of 49 Old 10-06-2018, 03:07 PM
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I remember Elka (predominately a dirt shock company) giving away their shocks to road racers at I believe the Daytona 200 about 10 years ago. I think every racer they gave one too gave it back and refused to run it in even in the support races.

I also remember the 600SS championship coming down to the last race of the season around that same time frame and there was a big stink about the Honda team pulling the internals out of their forks and replacing them with Ohlins. Basically they said when everything is on the line you do what you have to do to win. In this case it meant getting rid of the SHOWA components and using Ohlins. The issue is Honda owns SHOWA suspension and at the time Ohlins was owned by Yamaha. That is also the reason why American Honda took the AMA team private instead of leasing CBR1000RR's from HRC because they wanted to be able to use Ohlins instead of being forced to use the SHOWA kit suspension.

Anecdotes aside use whatever makes you happy or whatever you can afford. Just remember that mental confidence is in many cases just as important as the actual improvement of the parts you are installing. If you are confident that you have the best installed then you don't end up second guessing your choices and you can instead focus on riding instead of worrying about your suspension.
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post #26 of 49 Old 10-06-2018, 05:32 PM
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Like I said before, I have ridden all kinds. Granted, I am racing for money. I do ride at a respectively fast pace on track. I am not discounting any opinions and experiences. I have Ohlins TTX shocks on many of my bikes. I also have an Elka shock on my track Zx6r. I don't agree about the Elka shock being Shit. Not true in my case. Mine works great. I would love for you LDH to meet me at Buttonwillow and we can do some laps together so you can see I have adequate bike skills to make informed decisions about suspension components. I will be at Buttonwillow Turkeyday weekend Saturday. I think it's a Letsride group. Peace out.
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post #27 of 49 Old 10-15-2018, 11:41 AM Thread Starter
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quick question, how do you remove the upper bushing that sits in the outer tube?
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post #28 of 49 Old 10-15-2018, 12:34 PM
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Originally Posted by whiteryno111 View Post
quick question, how do you remove the upper bushing that sits in the outer tube?
Answer: you dont. They are pressed in from the factory and unless you know and have the proper tools you're going to kill the inside of the tubes. Also why are you trying to remove the bushings? Unless the teflon is shot there is no reason to remove the bushing.

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post #29 of 49 Old 10-15-2018, 12:44 PM
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You mean this isn't reusable?
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post #30 of 49 Old 10-16-2018, 06:14 AM Thread Starter
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I managed to remove them, they looked good, but I still went and put the new ones in.

It's quite tricky, because of the small section you have to push on them and the taper in the tube.
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