Geometry on the 2016 ZX10r - Page 4 - Kawasaki ZX-10R.net
 31Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #31 of 65 Old 02-04-2016, 02:04 PM
GP Rider
 
White Fang's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Posts: 1,667
Posting Frequency
   
Quote:
Originally Posted by evallarta1 View Post
Boy, I guess you just have ALL the answers.
I'm pretty sure I was saying I don't have any answers.

We will have answers when the real tests come through, with real riders, not motojournos, although the riding impressions so far are very positive.

Or we can do like they did with the dyno thread and try to solve everything on the Internet without putting a tire to pavement.

For Pete's sake, let's see how the bike does and then try to find where it can be improved.

Let's get the metrics in the real world under real condtions.

Otherwise let's just get an X-Box program and twiddle our thumbs.

Dang -- I am beginning to sound like Skydork...
MrKo and evilaugust like this.

Sturm und Drang

Last edited by White Fang; 02-05-2016 at 09:39 AM.
White Fang is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #32 of 65 Old 02-04-2016, 02:09 PM Thread Starter
GP Rider
 
evallarta1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Collinsville IL (by St Louis)
Posts: 1,460
Posting Frequency
      
Quote:
Originally Posted by White Fang View Post
I'm pretty sure I was saying I don't have any answers.

We will have answers when the real tests come through, with real riders, not motojournos, although the riding impressions so far are very positive.

Or we can do like they did with the dyno thread and try to solve everything on the Internet without putting a tire to pavement.

For Pete's sake, let's see how the bike does and then try to find where it can be improved.

Let's get the metrics in the real world under real condtions.

Otherwise let's just get an X-Box program and twiddle our thumbs.

Fuck me -- I am beginning to sound like Skydork...
Well I can tell you that they did test (MotoAmerica riders), and the numbers confirmed what they were feeling. 117mm of trail on Dunlop Slicks is no bueno.

Stupidity and Motivation are a dangerous combination

Velocity Calibrations
evallarta1 is offline  
post #33 of 65 Old 02-04-2016, 03:02 PM
Track Day Rider
 
ZX10dencies's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 131
Posting Frequency
 
In for info!

Brandon
2011 ZX10R
2011 BMW S1000RR
2011 Aprilia RSV4 Factory
2006 ZX10R - 177whp
2005 ZX10R
ZX10dencies is offline  
 
post #34 of 65 Old 02-04-2016, 04:09 PM
GP Rider
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Calif. Sierra
Posts: 1,976
Posting Frequency
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by or10r View Post
I understand what LDH and White Fang are saying about the manufacturer essentially dumbing down the bike for street sales. Still I like what Animal said. It does seem that starting with basic good chassis geometry would only make sense. I mean what better way to squelch chassis issues than to just make it right from the bones up to start with? Besides didn't Kawi already build "a death trap motorcycle that is unstable"? Gen 1 right?
I ride a gen 1, and wouldn't want any other gen.

There is no "right" for all the different uses.

It is up to the rider to start with what is most right, and prep it to make it absolutely right for how they use it.
louemc is offline  
post #35 of 65 Old 02-04-2016, 04:29 PM
Track Day Rider
 
ZX10dencies's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 131
Posting Frequency
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by White Fang View Post
I am sure that the comment this bike can be made to handle like a 600 is stretching things just a little bit. Maybe a lot.
All of your points are entirely spot on. However, the massive thing I notice missing in your breakdown is the mention of rotating inertia. No matter what suspension setup you dial in, absolutely nothing invented to this point has been able to counteract the gyroscopic forces of big heavy 1000 parts slinging around almost as fast as smaller 600 parts. Mladin and Doyle in Sonoma measured trap speeds through 6 at infineon and compared vs Yates on the 600FX bike. What they found was the 600 was pulling 5-7mph fairly consistently on the superbike.

The reason this was launched was Honda's big push to turn 600FX bikes into "superbike," class under the guise of safety. The argument was made by everyone (read: not honda) was that the higher corner speeds were contributing to the lack of safety, not big displacement. But, at the end of the day, essentially unlimited 600 vs. unlimited superbike.. the 600's still run faster through the corner. It's not really curb weight, it isn't really setup, it's not budget. It's rotational inertia.

One interesting thing of mention is how much longer the BSB/SBK swingarm is than the factory arm. They're trying to have the best of both worlds, as LDS was speaking to. Trying to keep wheelbase short as possible, while leveraging against big HP.. flickability vs. driving hard off of corner exit.

Brandon
2011 ZX10R
2011 BMW S1000RR
2011 Aprilia RSV4 Factory
2006 ZX10R - 177whp
2005 ZX10R
ZX10dencies is offline  
post #36 of 65 Old 02-04-2016, 07:02 PM
GP Rider
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Calif. Sierra
Posts: 1,976
Posting Frequency
 
Just to toss something into the pot... 600's are lame at high altitude. If a rider does sea level + high altitude as a day ride, with some serious freeway speeds where truckers travel in convoy... They have a reason to have versatile power (like a ZX-10).
louemc is offline  
post #37 of 65 Old 02-04-2016, 07:02 PM
Champion Rider
 
Carlos76's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Europe
Posts: 286
Posting Frequency
 
Back to topic.
After reading post #11 (evallarta1), I'm thinking what should we do about 2016 geometry then?
How much stuck are we with exessive trail when we shoud not raise rear because swingarm angle may be perfect already?

Lets say we are not moving swingarm pivot (stays standard) and try to get rake from 25 to 24 to steer better.
We lower front some 20mm (almost an inch) and set swingarm angle to 12.5 after that.
Let's assume doing this we got acceptable trail number (rake arround 24 degrees).

Questions:
Trail, rake, swingarm numbers are better now, but are we now having problem with too much weigth on front tyre, beacuse front was lowered too much??
Now lets use swingarm kit inserts and move pivot point down as much as possible, put forks to standard and set swingarm angle to "twelve comma something".
How much does new swingarm pivot position help reduce trail (and rake)?
Will it be enough to get trail in ballpark for fast A group rider?
Or are in addition triple clamps with bigger offset needed?
Carlos76 is offline  
post #38 of 65 Old 02-05-2016, 03:52 AM
Chairman of the Board
 
or10r's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Central Florida
Posts: 15,876
Posting Frequency
Images: 17
           
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by louemc View Post
I ride a gen 1, and wouldn't want any other gen.

There is no "right" for all the different uses.

It is up to the rider to start with what is most right, and prep it to make it absolutely right for how they use it.
I ride a gen 1 as well and have for 12 years. While I do understand that "there is no right for different uses" the 10r isn't made for different uses. Its a sport bike. That being said I can bet you that in general most folks will do faster lap times on a GSXR 750 than they will on a 1st gen 10R. The 1st gen 10 is inherently twitchy and unforgiving with a very raw power delivery. The Gixxer is much more forgiving. Certainly every rider is different but that's really not a part of the equation here. We are talking about chassis geometry. The fact is that certain chassis characteristics will cause the bike to behave in certain ways. All Im saying is that as a manufacturer I would think you would want to start with as close to a perfect set up as possible.
White Fang likes this.

or10r is offline  
post #39 of 65 Old 02-05-2016, 08:32 AM
GP Rider
 
fireman69's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,606
Posting Frequency
    
Quote:
Originally Posted by or10r View Post
Are you going to be racing the gen 5 next season Justin?
I am. In the process of building it now
fireman69 is offline  
post #40 of 65 Old 02-05-2016, 09:30 AM
GP Rider
 
White Fang's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Posts: 1,667
Posting Frequency
   
Quote:
Originally Posted by or10r View Post
I ride a gen 1 as well and have for 12 years. While I do understand that "there is no right for different uses" the 10r isn't made for different uses. Its a sport bike. That being said I can bet you that in general most folks will do faster lap times on a GSXR 750 than they will on a 1st gen 10R. The 1st gen 10 is inherently twitchy and unforgiving with a very raw power delivery. The Gixxer is much more forgiving. Certainly every rider is different but that's really not a part of the equation here. We are talking about chassis geometry. The fact is that certain chassis characteristics will cause the bike to behave in certain ways. All Im saying is that as a manufacturer I would think you would want to start with as close to a perfect set up as possible.
Absolutely. Very true re: the GSX-R, but how did Suzuki screw up the TL (Tankslappin')1000R? That was a beast. One bike I don't think I ever personally rode, but what a beast.

Sturm und Drang
White Fang is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Kawasaki ZX-10R.net forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in











Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome