Geometry on the 2016 ZX10r - Page 2 - Kawasaki ZX-10R.net
 31Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #11 of 65 Old 01-30-2016, 09:41 AM Thread Starter
GP Rider
 
evallarta1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Collinsville IL (by St Louis)
Posts: 1,460
Posting Frequency
      
Quote:
Originally Posted by shakazulu12 View Post
Race kit parts not enough to get you there?

Going to be a hassle for the superstock guys if that is the case. I thought that was the whole point of all the chassis revisions?
Exactly. The race kits arent legal in superstock so changing out collars isnt a option. So you have to work with what you got.

Basically the front has too much trail. The rear is PERFECT for what we want to see. The issue runs into if you drop the front to help pull in the trail, you lose that swingarm angle. If you jack the rear to put the bike on it's nose you add too much swingarm angle. For club racers it's no big deal, either change the spacers from the race kit or put on aftermarket triples. But like you mention it's not legal in superstock, so you have to come up with other options.....

As to the chassis revisions, with the right setup from the race kit you can make this thing handle like a 600.
shakazulu12 likes this.

Stupidity and Motivation are a dangerous combination

Velocity Calibrations
evallarta1 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #12 of 65 Old 01-30-2016, 09:45 AM Thread Starter
GP Rider
 
evallarta1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Collinsville IL (by St Louis)
Posts: 1,460
Posting Frequency
      
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdh View Post
I just got an email today from Kawasaki regarding the race kit. Would that be the "Steering Collar", "Steering Angle Adjuster Collar", "Swingarm Pivot Collars"? Will it be worse than the 2014 out of the box?
Yes the collars will allow you to change offsets and swingarm pivot height. This should give you a good amount of variations to work with.

Out of the box the new 10 will have killer drive. Pulling it into the corners may be a different story.

Stupidity and Motivation are a dangerous combination

Velocity Calibrations
evallarta1 is offline  
post #13 of 65 Old 01-30-2016, 11:32 AM
Track Day Rider
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 135
Posting Frequency
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by evallarta1 View Post
Exactly. The race kits arent legal in superstock so changing out collars isnt a option. So you have to work with what you got.

Basically the front has too much trail. The rear is PERFECT for what we want to see. The issue runs into if you drop the front to help pull in the trail, you lose that swingarm angle. If you jack the rear to put the bike on it's nose you add too much swingarm angle. For club racers it's no big deal, either change the spacers from the race kit or put on aftermarket triples. But like you mention it's not legal in superstock, so you have to come up with other options.....

As to the chassis revisions, with the right setup from the race kit you can make this thing handle like a 600.
Wow, I totally mis-understood the rules when I first read that. but you are right, can't use different inserts to change anything. Was it the same with the FIM rules? I'm thinking the setups on the Panigale R and Aprilia would have come under scrutiny. The link ratio and swingarm pivot on the Panigale would probably slide through, but I thought the Aprilia used adjustable inserts as the ZX-10R is now using.
shakazulu12 is offline  
 
post #14 of 65 Old 02-02-2016, 01:27 AM
Always On Mod
 
Animal11's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Nor-Cal
Posts: 1,829
Posting Frequency
      
Quote:
Originally Posted by evallarta1 View Post
Exactly. The race kits arent legal in superstock so changing out collars isnt a option. So you have to work with what you got.

Basically the front has too much trail. The rear is PERFECT for what we want to see. The issue runs into if you drop the front to help pull in the trail, you lose that swingarm angle. If you jack the rear to put the bike on it's nose you add too much swingarm angle. For club racers it's no big deal, either change the spacers from the race kit or put on aftermarket triples. But like you mention it's not legal in superstock, so you have to come up with other options.....

As to the chassis revisions, with the right setup from the race kit you can make this thing handle like a 600.
It boggles my mind that this can be figured out in a matter of weeks in the aftermarket, yet the factory engineers can't work it out over the past few years. You think it's a street vs track compromise?
renais, SDsting and DreadedJD like this.

Fast parts, Great Service: PM Mike at Rider's Discount
Animal11 is offline  
post #15 of 65 Old 02-02-2016, 09:10 AM
LDH
GP Rider
 
LDH's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 1,472
Posting Frequency
     
Quote:
Originally Posted by Animal11 View Post
It boggles my mind that this can be figured out in a matter of weeks in the aftermarket, yet the factory engineers can't work it out over the past few years. You think it's a street vs track compromise?
As I said in the other thread where every body was rubbing each other off about how awesome the new gen 5 was going to be it all comes to cost and liability. A boardroom of suits decide what parts ultimately end up on the bike not the engineers or test riders. If it costs too much it gets replaced, if it has to much adjustability that get could the average rider in trouble if they dial in the wrong settings it gets replaced. Look no further than the steering dampers for proof that. They don't even trust the consumers enough not to dial in the damping settings so much that it makes the bike too difficult to steer resulting in a wreck so they give the bikes a damper that simply doesn't work properly until it is revalved or replaced. Why anyone would think that any of that is going to change just because it is a new 2016 bike when they have been doing it like that for over a decade is beyond me.

They want you to buy aftermarket race type parts that improve the handling and performance etc as part of the strategy of marketing the bikes. Not only does that give Kawasaki the chance to make more money off the consumers, but an entire industry.

Last edited by LDH; 02-02-2016 at 09:16 AM.
LDH is offline  
post #16 of 65 Old 02-02-2016, 10:51 AM
Always On Mod
 
Animal11's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Nor-Cal
Posts: 1,829
Posting Frequency
      
Quote:
Originally Posted by LDH View Post
As I said in the other thread where every body was rubbing each other off about how awesome the new gen 5 was going to be it all comes to cost and liability. A boardroom of suits decide what parts ultimately end up on the bike not the engineers or test riders. If it costs too much it gets replaced, if it has to much adjustability that get could the average rider in trouble if they dial in the wrong settings it gets replaced. Look no further than the steering dampers for proof that. They don't even trust the consumers enough not to dial in the damping settings so much that it makes the bike too difficult to steer resulting in a wreck so they give the bikes a damper that simply doesn't work properly until it is revalved or replaced. Why anyone would think that any of that is going to change just because it is a new 2016 bike when they have been doing it like that for over a decade is beyond me.

They want you to buy aftermarket race type parts that improve the handling and performance etc as part of the strategy of marketing the bikes. Not only does that give Kawasaki the chance to make more money off the consumers, but an entire industry.
I understand it from a component standpoint. Steering damper, exhaust, clipons windscreen. That's very different from the chassis geometry. Especially when SS rules restrict you from changing steering head inserts. You would think that Kawi wants to be successful at all levels of racing given the push to "get closer" to the WSBK success
bluedevil likes this.

Fast parts, Great Service: PM Mike at Rider's Discount
Animal11 is offline  
post #17 of 65 Old 02-02-2016, 11:00 AM
LDH
GP Rider
 
LDH's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 1,472
Posting Frequency
     
Quote:
Originally Posted by Animal11 View Post
I understand it from a component standpoint. Steering damper, exhaust, clipons windscreen. That's very different from the chassis geometry. Especially when SS rules restrict you from changing steering head inserts. You would think that Kawi wants to be successful at all levels of racing given the push to "get closer" to the WSBK success
I don't really keep up with all the different homologation rules anymore, but I am willing to bet that if they produced the bike right off the showroom floor with adjustable or replaceable offsets that it would be legal for most SS classes. The problem once again becomes cost and liability. The bikes are inherently stable off the showroom floor so stable that they don't even steer all that well. They run wide through turns which limits how much drive you can get and if you set down a wheelie all crossed up the geometry will correct itself even with the crappy level of damping the stock dampers have.

So if a customer were to change the geometry settings of his brand new bike right off the showroom floor so that the bike steers quicker and doesn't run wide allowing him to use more throttle on the drive out etc then the stability of the bike is then compromised and when he fails to maintain control because the bike will no longer tolerate a crossed up wheelie landed wrong by a mediocre rider then the rider is going to blame Kawasaki for building a death trap motorcycle that is unstable. It's just the way things are... keep in mind I am using this as a broad example not the only specific scenario.

If you want a race track oriented geometry then be prepared to pay for the parts after the sale of the bike to make that happen because you are not going to get it from a production bike sold for use on public roads by any 16 year old with a drivers license that can afford the monthly note,

Last edited by LDH; 02-02-2016 at 11:02 AM.
LDH is offline  
post #18 of 65 Old 02-02-2016, 11:05 AM
GP Rider
 
White Fang's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Posts: 1,667
Posting Frequency
   
And as I also said, mirroring LDH's comments (and they are spot-on) the stock version of this bike is tailored for street use. The steering is lazy, wheelbase long. Lazier and longer than than the Gen 4. These types of bikes are usually set up that way to at least help keep the front end down.

Whatever has been determined here by these measurements is somewhat speculative and KHI did not build a bike so they could lose the World title.

I was working with GMD Computrack very closely nearly twenty years ago and we won several championships with their help. This was long before anyone else was doing it.

This report is not much different than the dyno thread. The Gen 5 is going to prove to be a superb bike, in the right hands.

As some say "this thread is worthless without images" I say it is almost worthless without the measurements obtained other than than to stimulate another entertaining series of lively exchanges, lol!

Give us some numbers, we want numbers...
chuckgraves likes this.

Sturm und Drang
White Fang is offline  
post #19 of 65 Old 02-02-2016, 11:10 AM
Track Day Rider
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 135
Posting Frequency
 
I had assumed that the kit parts would have been allowed, but due to this thread I actually read the section in the MA rulebook about it. And it clearly said as produced, no additional inserts etc allowed. If the bike allows for adjustments, it must be done with the original inserts, not different parts. Didn't look up the FIM Superstock rules, I'm guessing they are allowed over there, or there isn't much of a point in Kawi making the parts. Bummer for the MA teams. I know that Aprilia was bitching in WSBK last year when they changed the rules on their chassis in regards to engine position. You can move the engine on the RSV4, but FIM came back and said they had to pick one spot and stick with it for the entire year. Haslem said somewhere around the second or third round that he thought they picked the wrong position.
shakazulu12 is offline  
post #20 of 65 Old 02-02-2016, 11:10 AM
GP Rider
 
White Fang's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Posts: 1,667
Posting Frequency
   
Quote:
Originally Posted by LDH View Post
As I said in the other thread where every body was rubbing each other off about how awesome the new gen 5 was going to be it all comes to cost and liability. A boardroom of suits decide what parts ultimately end up on the bike not the engineers or test riders. If it costs too much it gets replaced, if it has to much adjustability that get could the average rider in trouble if they dial in the wrong settings it gets replaced. Look no further than the steering dampers for proof that. They don't even trust the consumers enough not to dial in the damping settings so much that it makes the bike too difficult to steer resulting in a wreck so they give the bikes a damper that simply doesn't work properly until it is revalved or replaced. Why anyone would think that any of that is going to change just because it is a new 2016 bike when they have been doing it like that for over a decade is beyond me.

They want you to buy aftermarket race type parts that improve the handling and performance etc as part of the strategy of marketing the bikes. Not only does that give Kawasaki the chance to make more money off the consumers, but an entire industry.
Yes, and the average, or even above-average track day rider has NO CLUE (yes, those are CAPS) about how a real race bike handles and what kind of physical and mental capabilities are required to operate such a bike.

Arthur Coldwells (Ultimate Motorcycling) is the only guy who seems to have figured out why the Honda RC 213VS is $184,000.

There is a level of handling on a machine where no expense is spared in either the design or manufacture of the bike. This is why the power is so restricted on most street versions of the RC213VS; with the full power possible, the bike would be uncontrollable in the hands of an inexperienced rider.

That means me, you, and just about everyone else out there.

The RC213VS is a racebike with lights.

Bikes like the ZX-10R are streetbikes with number plates.

LDH, good call on this.

Sturm und Drang

Last edited by White Fang; 02-02-2016 at 11:14 AM.
White Fang is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Kawasaki ZX-10R.net forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in











Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome