brake fade - Page 3 - Kawasaki ZX-10R.net
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post #21 of 112 Old 02-15-2007, 01:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 12RPilot
The Brembo m/c will not cure the problem. Whoever said that is blowing smoke.
His problem with the lever coming to the bar has nothing to do with gas behind the pads or anything else. My 10 had its first trackday after about 800 break in miles and the pads were hardly worn. It didn't even take 2 full sessions of the Autobahn south course before the bar was coming to the bar and scaring the shit out of me. I tried bleeding, steel lines, fluid, different pads, holy water, etc. Nothing worked. Until the subject came up in a disussion with Dan Kyle while ordering more parts for the RC. Basically, what he said is that the tolerances on the oem m/c are so high that when the fluid heats up, the metal inside the m/c expands and allows enough fluid by to make your lever travel more and more to get any pressure. So his and many racers advice was to buy a quality(brembo) m/c. And I don't know about anyone else but I have never known Dan to blow smoke when it comes to bikes.
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post #22 of 112 Old 02-15-2007, 05:20 AM
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Originally Posted by ZX10Rracer
The only way to bleed your brakes is to start at the master cylinders banjo bolt,.... and bleed EVERY banjo bolt going down the system then bleed at the bleeders on the calipers! .........works every time!!!!
PS, when you crack your banjo bolts you want it to barely open! and you want to have to squeeze the hell out of the lever to get it to shut! this will force the air out and not just pump out the fluid!{which is what happens if you open it too much} allowing the air to rise back up the line!!
When i install new lines or a MC this is the process i use as i work to rid the entire system of air with great success each and every time.

Something thats not been mentioned in this thread yet is the vast majority of brake fluids be hydroscopic (attracts moisture from the atmosphere) therefore diluting the fluid more and more as time goes by so this is part of the reason why many suggest either bleeding often or better yet flushing the entire system and using new fluid to avoid the moisture/water factor which will heat up or boil quicker than say new fluid.

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post #23 of 112 Old 02-15-2007, 07:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phastone
Basically, what he said is that the tolerances on the oem m/c are so high that when the fluid heats up, the metal inside the m/c expands and allows enough fluid by to make your lever travel more and more to get any pressure. So his and many racers advice was to buy a quality(brembo) m/c. And I don't know about anyone else but I have never known Dan to blow smoke when it comes to bikes.
So when you experience this fade, and were to bleed the banjo at the m/c, the fluid coming out would be really hot. I'd like to try this sometime. (Won't be for a while though. It's -2 degrees here today )
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post #24 of 112 Old 02-15-2007, 07:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 12RPilot
So when you experience this fade, and were to bleed the banjo at the m/c, the fluid coming out would be really hot. I'd like to try this sometime. (Won't be for a while though. It's -2 degrees here today )

brrr thats cold...from what i remember of my 10 the brakes were alright on it...i def. like the stock set-up on my r1 better...make sure that you have all the air outa your lines and get rid of the stock pads

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post #25 of 112 Old 02-15-2007, 08:36 AM
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If the lever comes back to the bar , there are only three assumptions to be made, the pistons have been pushed back by "knock back" from warped or floaty rotors , or there is air in the system or a leak...period.

Brake fade is when the pads give up , not when the lever gives up.
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post #26 of 112 Old 02-15-2007, 02:57 PM
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Uhh.....you might want to do a little research and get back to us on that.
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post #27 of 112 Old 02-15-2007, 03:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluedevil
Good post FAF, I believe the first reviews of the 10 from the Mags said the exact thing, a proper bleed seems to cure most of that. I know when I went to my first track day on a stock 10 it wasn't a problem but then again i don't ride or use the brakes as some of you guys....but was very hard on the bike to accelerate from corner to corner and could stop/slow down with no problems...drag strip runs I would be stopping from 150mph down to nothing to turn out from the strip. I guess what I am saying is for a normal rider the brakes are able to stop the 10 with no problem from factory, for constant track day riders well maybe it's an issue to be addressed but it seems a good bleeding of the brakes cures most problems.
I'm going to have to agree. I haven't experienced brake fade since I implemented a screw clamp on the mighty vac hose at both ends. Pump it up to 20-25 psi and open the bleeder valve a little. Also on the 10, a little RTFM of the service manual and going to a two line system (front) will increase the probabability of a successful bleed for the reasons FAF pointed out. Good info either way.


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post #28 of 112 Old 02-15-2007, 09:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 12RPilot
Uhh.....you might want to do a little research and get back to us on that.
Loss of brake pressure and brake fade are two different entities , normally fade happens on underbraked street vehicles that overheat the rotors and pads resulting in less bite(fade).Or brake fade can happen on cold carbon rotors until they are hot.

It is highly unlikely that you will ever get rotor temps and thus pad temps hot enough to boil brake fluid on a street bike , one reason being the entire brake system is exposed to moving air , and with the wavy rotors and perforations its almost a non entity.

If the lever has more play in it then there has to be either movement in the caliper pistons or you have fluid bypassing the master cylinder seals or you have a leak and thus getting air in the system.
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post #29 of 112 Old 02-15-2007, 10:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FAF
If the lever comes back to the bar , there are only three assumptions to be made, the pistons have been pushed back by "knock back" from warped or floaty rotors , or there is air in the system or a leak...period.

Brake fade is when the pads give up , not when the lever gives up.
Ok... I'll bite. Please explain how this works out with my situation.

1) After a few laps, My brakes deteriorate to the point where they will come all the way back to the bar, even on the furthest out adjustment on the lever, when I try to use maximum braking force. It almost feels like air in the lines (almost like freeplay in a clutch...) but.....

2)I come into the pits, change NOTHING BUT MY PADS, not even remove the calipers from the bike, and go out and ride at the same pace as before..... and now I have far more lever pull... I can get maximum braking and still have 3/4" pull before the lever hits the bar.

3)I come back in, just for the hell of it, and put the old pads back in. after 2-3 laps, problem comes right back. Seems pretty narrowed down to me (or I should say for me, in this case).

Rotors are true, and there's no way they're floating enough to knock the pads back..... no violent bumps, no headshake, very little time between stops, etc. I'm of a mechanics' mind about this too.... I can't find a simple answer for why this is. Wear on the pads -should not- have an effect and the range of motion in a perfect system.... but that is THE ONLY variable that I had to change to fix the problem. Mind you, the brakes behave perfectly when they are at most street operating temperatures... regardless of nominal pad wear.

I'd love to know why...

Attack life... it's going to kill you anyway.

Last edited by SpazOnaZX; 02-15-2007 at 11:00 PM.
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post #30 of 112 Old 02-16-2007, 08:54 AM
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I think you explained it in the first paragraph (feels spongy like air)
but there are variables, like the second set of pads being the same as the first as in material and thickness, how far back did you push the pistons when installing the second set.How old are the two sets, has one set been saturated by rain, are they organic or composite.

I have had one instance of spongy brakes not contributed to air and that was from an organic type that had been used in the rain , this was not on a bike but still relates, after saturation they were used again the next day, they literally had decomposed and pushing the brake pedal was recompressing them , horrible feeling and the brakes suffered from fade after that.

But normally, if it feels like air, guess what ??
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