brake fade - Page 2 - Kawasaki ZX-10R.net
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post #11 of 112 Old 02-14-2007, 08:36 AM
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I think people saying the brembo will cure your brake fade are assuming you have bled the system properly. Sure you could have the best m/c money can buy and if there is air in the system it will feel like crap. similar to having the brembo and ss lines, superbike rotors, etc...and then still running your stock pads. they can only be as good as their weakest link so to speak
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post #12 of 112 Old 02-14-2007, 09:54 AM
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If there are air pockets in the lines then the brakes will feel spongey no matter what m/c you are using. But i have never heard of air in the lines causing brake fade. It has been my experience that if there is air in the lines your brakes will feel funny from the get go not later down the line. Do a search for brake fade on here and you will find loads of info about guys saying to switch to a radial m/c.

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post #13 of 112 Old 02-14-2007, 09:03 PM
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Like I said before, the type of brake fade that causes the lever travel to increase is from the fluid boiling and causing a vapor pocket behind the caliper pistons. If someone could tell me how compressing those vapor pockets with a different caliper could cure the problem, I'm all ears. I'm old, but not too old to learn.
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post #14 of 112 Old 02-14-2007, 09:27 PM
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Heh... I had the same problem with my 06 (Radial M/C and all) at Arroyo this weekend, and Roger down there brought up a neat point. In very short words, he said the problem with both the 1st and 2nd gen Zx-10R's was actually in the calipers... something about the piston bores not being machined perfectly perpendicular/square to the mounting axis (read: the plane of the brake rotors). The more the brake pads wear down, the greater the brake fade effect becomes when they warm up. He said he'd actually discussed this with D. Chandler when he was down there, as he was having a similar problem with his bike.

I can personally agree with this, as I took my bike down there when it was brand-spankin-new. The lever would fade back to a certain point after I got the brakes warmed up, but nowhere near the bar when I had the lever set out..... about halfway before the tire would start to howl. When I went back last week, the ONLY thing different was the amount of wear on my pads (they were about 1/2-2/3 worn out...), and the fade after 5 laps would have the lever at the bar. I slapped a new set of pads in right there, and it was back to the good 'ol 'half pull before the tire locked up' way it was when it was brand new. I also noticed another thing that goes to confirm this... the pads showed an uneven wear pattern, as if they were not being pushed even;y/square into the rotors.

Things like uber-fluid, SS lines, and other crap will help, but I believe that Roger and Doug are right about the calipers being suspect. He said keeping fresh pads in at all times will stave off the effects... but that can get kind of expensive if you do a lot of track time.

My 2 pennies :)

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Last edited by SpazOnaZX; 02-14-2007 at 09:35 PM.
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post #15 of 112 Old 02-14-2007, 09:41 PM
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I know all the research I have done on brake fade comes back to using high quality fluid and changing often. That includes many car club websites where they do track days. Can you imagine tooling down the front straight in your Porsche and the brake pedal goes to the floor? Doh!!! I have to wonder if thinner pads (ie worn down) transfer more heat to the pistons and therefore increase the fade problem.
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post #16 of 112 Old 02-14-2007, 10:03 PM
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I can't disagree with all the general information you said about brake fade: indeed, these things will cause problems. :) I'm saying that the ZX10's have a -specific- problem that is causing the fade on top of anything else that might be wrong. All vehicles I've ridin/driven aggressivly exhibit some margin of brake fade (for the reasons you stated above), but the error in the ZX10's calipers are multiplying the effect in this particular case. :) Looking at my pad wear, I can say with certainty that there is something not square with the geometry between the pistons and the rotors.... but it's minute enough that it doesn't really rear it's ugly head until you really start pushing it. I've never pushed it hard enough on the street to get it to show.

My brake system is otherwise without flaws (good fluid, clean caliper pistons, free of air, etc.), and the only variable I changed was the depth of wear on the brake pads. I doubt the amout of heat being transfered is changed significantly (if at all) by the few mm's of brake pad not being there (there is a very small difference... I'd say less than 8 mm between a new pad and a completely worn one). More over, I'm pretty sure the total heat involved is not boiling the brake fluid (in my case, anyway).

Good info, though, that you posted up there.

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post #17 of 112 Old 02-14-2007, 10:42 PM
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Yes sir... mine were not square when they came out... a mm or two higer on one end than the other (which is certainly quite a few percent... I'd have to do some measuring/math when I change the rest of my pads). I had about 12K miles on those pads; they were about 1/2-2/3 worn out I'd say (there was still a bit of that grove left... I usually use it as a wear bar on other bike I've had). Those were almost all street miles, though (one other trackday), and I'm not really hard on my brakes on the street at all.

I'd have to think for a bit on all the effects non-square bores would have on braking performance... but there are several that spring right to mind. You have less actual effective force being applied the further away from perpendicular you get (like trying to push a car forward from directly behind it straight in the direction of travel would be most effectivet, as opposed to trying to push it in the same direction of travel from the corner & pushing @ a 45 degree angle would be less effective). I'd imagine you'd generate odd hot spot(s) on the pads themselves on the leading edges.... and I don't know how well the pistons would return when they're at an angle. I do know that if the bores were at any other angle than 90 in relation to the rotors that the effect would be a compound error the more the pads were worn. The effect seems like it would be linear, but the error would be worse the further the pistons are out of the bore.

It is certainly food for thought, though. :) And it seems to be the only consistant, believable explanation that I can single out for the fade in my circumstances.

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Last edited by SpazOnaZX; 02-14-2007 at 10:46 PM.
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post #18 of 112 Old 02-14-2007, 11:02 PM
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The only way to bleed your brakes it to start at the master cylinders banjo bolt,.... and bleed EVERY banjo bolt going down the system then bleed at the bleeders on the calipers! .........works every time!!!!
PS, when you crack your banjo bolts you want it to barley open! and you want to have to squeeze the hell out of the lever to get it to shut! this will force the air out and not just pump out the fluid!{witch is what happens if you open it too much} allowing the air to rise back up the line!!
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post #19 of 112 Old 02-14-2007, 11:05 PM
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Most of these problems come from bleeding issues , if you ever check the back of your stock pads you will see that they are indeed HH's , there are a few reasons why the radial master appears to be better , but the main one is that infact it is easier to bleed compared to the old, I have bled my stock master off the bars and I have excellent or should I say minimal play, I couldnt achieve this with bleeding on the bike and I see no reason to swap it out for a radial at this time.

Get them bubbles out dudes, one of the best ways is to take it to the track to shake them little suckers out of their hidey holes and back up the lines to the master.

A lot of these problems I here about arent brake fade , but extra lever travel after a few hard laps or fade due to pressure decrease caused by air or gas pockets and not pad fade.

Oh and one more thing, it is easier to get an air bubble out from the top of a tube than the bottom , thats why Kawi put a bleeder at the master end on the 06's.

As far as vac pumps , I am not a big fan , afterall if you are trying to suck an air bubble from the top of a tube all the way down, through a chamber in a caliper and into its reservoir , that takes a lot of fluid movement and still doesnt necessarily pull the air bubble down.
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post #20 of 112 Old 02-14-2007, 11:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FAF
Most of these problems come from bleeding issues , if you ever check the back of your stock pads you will see that they are indeed HH's , there are a few reasons why the radial master appears to be better , but the main one is that infact it is easier to bleed compared to the old, I have bled my stock master off the bars and I have excellent or should I say minimal play, I couldnt achieve this with bleeding on the bike and I see no reason to swap it out for a radial at this time.

Get them bubbles out dudes, one of the best ways is to take it to the track to shake them little suckers out of their hidey holes and back up the lines to the master.

A lot of these problems I here about arent brake fade , but extra lever travel after a few hard laps or fade due to pressure decrease caused by air or gas pockets and not pad fade.

Oh and one more thing, it is easier to get an air bubble out from the top of a tube than the bottom , thats why Kawi put a bleeder at the master end on the 06's.

As far as vac pumps , I am not a big fan , afterall if you are trying to suck an air bubble from the top of a tube all the way down, through a chamber in a caliper and into its reservoir , that takes a lot of fluid movement and still doesnt necessarily pull the air bubble down.
Good post FAF, I believe the first reviews of the 10 from the Mags said the exact thing, a proper bleed seems to cure most of that. I know when I went to my first track day on a stock 10 it wasn't a problem but then again i don't ride or use the brakes as some of you guys....but was very hard on the bike to accelerate from corner to corner and could stop/slow down with no problems...drag strip runs I would be stopping from 150mph down to nothing to turn out from the strip. I guess what I am saying is for a normal rider the brakes are able to stop the 10 with no problem from factory, for constant track day riders well maybe it's an issue to be addressed but it seems a good bleeding of the brakes cures most problems.
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