Boosting gen1 zx10r - Kawasaki ZX-10R.net
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post #1 of 6 Old 05-09-2018, 01:54 AM Thread Starter
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Boosting gen1 zx10r

heya buddies..

I'm in the progress to start a new project with my gen1 zx10 which is boosting it.. now before i go all wild i wanted to gather some info here on the forum since i won't be the first person doing this and don't feel like reinventing the wheel.. Well here it goes.

I have a garrett gr2871 turbo and walbro pump laying around i want to use for the bike, now i know i need lots more parts like injectors etc etc etc.. but i'm looking at the best practises / advise on how to do this. I want to keep the engine stock/unopened (for now) and am planning to run a w2a intercooler under the tank and will be aiming for max 300hp for now.

Need some info like, what injectors to use as i've seen people use stock car injectors on these bikes (evo3?), placement of the parts, fuel rail, what ecu to use etc etc.. I'm not aiming to make this a high spec top dollar build but just want to boost it for fun and maybe go a little further next year.. i currently have a PC3 with ignition module in the bike (also quickshifter but disconnected it) will this be enough or need i switch to something else like a rapidbike or something..

p.s. i'm not a complete newbie when it comes to boosting vehicles as i have built and drive a 600hp rx7 as i said just gathering info how to boost this little baby.

pics of both the vehicles in the attachments
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post #2 of 6 Old 05-09-2018, 02:03 AM Thread Starter
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One important thing i forgot o ask is: "Where do you tap the oil feed for the turbo??" i need to know this so i can start by making an oil feed for the turbo and haning it in there!

Thanks!
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post #3 of 6 Old 05-09-2018, 09:35 AM
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Welcome. :) Sharp RX-7... have a little bit of hands on with FD's as well. :)

Before anyone can honestly or accurately answer most of those questions, you need to have a realistic goal in front of you. How much power/how much pressure do you plan on making, and what type of fuel are you going to run? How you size everything depends on those parts first. That's a pretty decent turbo for the bike, and it will most likely get you to your 300hp (about 15 or so PSI) goal, plus or minus whatever dyno fudge factor you subscribe to.

300hp on a stock motor, on the other hand, is asking a lot of faith from unmeasured parts. They might be strong enough, they might not.... it's generally not worth finding out at 160+mph. At the very, very least you would want to go through the head and upgrade the valvetrain. I've run stock parts up to 10psi with water injection, and it worked great until the water system failed one day... and it melted pretty much instantly. Keep it at 5-7 psi on pump gas if you don't have water injection/intercooling and you will most likely be ok. 10psi is almost unrideable anyway on stock wheelbase... rolling power wheelies at 130+ mph with 19/38 gearing become a reality. Fun, at first, but not very fast. Beyond that, though, and I would start thinking very hard about aftermarket rods and pistons, and maybe a touch less static compression. Clutch components will be a concern as well. You can put heavy springs in there for clamping power, but the stock basket will only suffer so much abuse... and when they go it might as well be a rod breaking for all the damage it does.

Injector sizing will depend on the fuel, and what type of regulator you use. Given that this bike only uses a single stage of 4 injectors, you're going to want them as small as you can... tuning big injectors for driveability over 13000rpm isn't much fun. With a 1:1 FPR you could get away with ID715's, it's what I run. They can be run with a stock fuel rail if you like, though they need a couple small spacers to get the height right. You must absolutely come up with a replacement fuel pump/filter set-up... the stock in-tank units have non-serviceable filters that WILL clog over time, and it WILL melt your motor. Ask me how I know. ;)

Placement of parts: wherever it fits. I can tell you from experience that you are in for a helluva time fitting an intercooler on this platform, but it is 100% worth it. I buy a lot of small stuff to make it all fit; Turbosmart and Fuel Lab both make compact parts for boosted set-ups that will help with the packaging. Without an intercooler, 300hp will be deep in race gas territory if you want it to live past 4th gear... even with an intercooler I'd want some sort of special fuel or water injection.

I'm assuming here, so feel free to correct me, but it looks like you're more interested in a bolt-on affair at this point, so you can get away with a lot of stock stuff. But if you plan on turning it up later you will most certainly have to change all that... I'm personally not a fan of doing it twice when you can do it right the first time. If you don't want to get into stand alone territory (which I do recommend), at least upgrade to the PCV to handle the fueling... they are a lot easier to tune than the PC3, and take up a lot less room. If you run WI/Race gas you can leave the timing alone at low boost... but anything beyond that you'll need to trim a bit. By the time you're done adding on power commander boxes you'll be close to the cost of a stand alone anyway, and at 300hp you're really not going to want to run stock electronics.... trust me on that.

Oh, and a handy oil feed is the same place that the oil pressure dummy light is screwed into... I usually make some sort of block or T-fitting and run them both on the same port. The engine-side fittings are BSP, and you'll need to run check valve (low psi) and restrictor for that turbo.... these bikes make quite a bit of oil pressure at high rpm.

Ok, that's a start. G'luck!
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Last edited by SpazOnaZX; 05-09-2018 at 09:38 AM.
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post #4 of 6 Old 05-10-2018, 09:50 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SpazOnaZX View Post
Welcome. :) Sharp RX-7... have a little bit of hands on with FD's as well. :)

Before anyone can honestly or accurately answer most of those questions, you need to have a realistic goal in front of you. How much power/how much pressure do you plan on making, and what type of fuel are you going to run? How you size everything depends on those parts first. That's a pretty decent turbo for the bike, and it will most likely get you to your 300hp (about 15 or so PSI) goal, plus or minus whatever dyno fudge factor you subscribe to.

300hp on a stock motor, on the other hand, is asking a lot of faith from unmeasured parts. They might be strong enough, they might not.... it's generally not worth finding out at 160+mph. At the very, very least you would want to go through the head and upgrade the valvetrain. I've run stock parts up to 10psi with water injection, and it worked great until the water system failed one day... and it melted pretty much instantly. Keep it at 5-7 psi on pump gas if you don't have water injection/intercooling and you will most likely be ok. 10psi is almost unrideable anyway on stock wheelbase... rolling power wheelies at 130+ mph with 19/38 gearing become a reality. Fun, at first, but not very fast. Beyond that, though, and I would start thinking very hard about aftermarket rods and pistons, and maybe a touch less static compression. Clutch components will be a concern as well. You can put heavy springs in there for clamping power, but the stock basket will only suffer so much abuse... and when they go it might as well be a rod breaking for all the damage it does.

Injector sizing will depend on the fuel, and what type of regulator you use. Given that this bike only uses a single stage of 4 injectors, you're going to want them as small as you can... tuning big injectors for driveability over 13000rpm isn't much fun. With a 1:1 FPR you could get away with ID715's, it's what I run. They can be run with a stock fuel rail if you like, though they need a couple small spacers to get the height right. You must absolutely come up with a replacement fuel pump/filter set-up... the stock in-tank units have non-serviceable filters that WILL clog over time, and it WILL melt your motor. Ask me how I know. ;)

Placement of parts: wherever it fits. I can tell you from experience that you are in for a helluva time fitting an intercooler on this platform, but it is 100% worth it. I buy a lot of small stuff to make it all fit; Turbosmart and Fuel Lab both make compact parts for boosted set-ups that will help with the packaging. Without an intercooler, 300hp will be deep in race gas territory if you want it to live past 4th gear... even with an intercooler I'd want some sort of special fuel or water injection.

I'm assuming here, so feel free to correct me, but it looks like you're more interested in a bolt-on affair at this point, so you can get away with a lot of stock stuff. But if you plan on turning it up later you will most certainly have to change all that... I'm personally not a fan of doing it twice when you can do it right the first time. If you don't want to get into stand alone territory (which I do recommend), at least upgrade to the PCV to handle the fueling... they are a lot easier to tune than the PC3, and take up a lot less room. If you run WI/Race gas you can leave the timing alone at low boost... but anything beyond that you'll need to trim a bit. By the time you're done adding on power commander boxes you'll be close to the cost of a stand alone anyway, and at 300hp you're really not going to want to run stock electronics.... trust me on that.

Oh, and a handy oil feed is the same place that the oil pressure dummy light is screwed into... I usually make some sort of block or T-fitting and run them both on the same port. The engine-side fittings are BSP, and you'll need to run check valve (low psi) and restrictor for that turbo.... these bikes make quite a bit of oil pressure at high rpm.

Ok, that's a start. G'luck!
Thanks for the very very in detail answer, very very much appriciated!!

I plan on running Pump fuel 98 octane since you can get that practically at any pump here, i drive the bike around a lot so race gas is not an option. I'm aiming for 8-10psi on this turbo and i'm definitly going to use a a2a or w2a intercooler! i've seen a few builds where the intercooler is stuffed in under the tank where the airbox normally is. I think this is the most practical place to put it since there's no room to place it somewhere else. I've also thought about the idea of using meth/water as it does wonders for my car but if i'm going to use the w2a intercooler i don't want to make my life harder by also having to place another pump and reservoir for the meth/water injection + like you said adding another failure point.

300hp is max! but i'll be aiming more in the region of 250.. because like i said i want to leave the engine stock and unopened for now. I completely understand what you're saying by doing it right the first time.. with that in mind that's how i built my car. But i want it to be as much bolt on as can be so i can get it up and running in the summer. The winters here are hard and i don't drive the bike or the car then anyways.. so that's when i'll be taking my time and doing the engine a bit more if i want to do so..

I'm upgrading the RX7's ecu this winter, and i'm thinking about using the unit i have in the car now for the zx10 (adaptronic 440d universal) really a beautiful unit with lots of option. 2 fuel maps, 2 ignition maps, meth control, antilag, launch control, boost by gear etc etc...

But for now it has to be as bolt on as it can be.. i don't mind taking the bike apart once again since it's my hobby anyway.

What fueling concerns:
- Aren't there drop in injectors for these bikes? i've seen a few buids with 550cc if i remember correctly that just dropped in without any adjustments.
- I'm going to use my "old" walbro 255lph in tank fuel pump for the zx10r
- which fpr would you suggest using for this application?

I put my PC3 for sale along with the rest of the units and i'm planning on buying the rapid bike race for the time beeing. i did a bit of digging around and it looks like a very capable unit. If you have any links to parts or whatever it'll help a lot!

Cheers buddy and again, thanks for your input!
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post #5 of 6 Old 05-10-2018, 09:55 AM Thread Starter
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Actually working on upgrades for the car while typing this message :)
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post #6 of 6 Old 05-10-2018, 12:09 PM
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Good stuff. :) I'm digging that alternator relocation... cleans it up nice. We're putting an Elite 1500 ECU in my buddies right now... just got tired of the PowerFC life. This is my first full dive into Haltech stuff, and so far I like what I see. His is set up for about 19psi on that new S300SX-E on a Howard Coleman Motor, with an occasional dab into the 25psi setting... it's a riot. We're also building a 2" SS schedule 40 manifold for it right now... it builds a lot like the land speed turbo harley motors I've been working with for the last year. :)

Back on topic: 8-10 is doable on a stock motor, I did it for a while... but 10psi is enough to tie the stock chassis in knots; you're going to need good boost control to be able to really ride it. I absolutely love WI/AI, but you're right about the added complexity. It's been a long, hard road to get a reliable system on mine, it takes up a lot of room, and it's really hard to plumb with an A2W intercooler core in the airbox. Honestly, if you intercool it first it's just a lot easier to pour in C16 if you want to do big long pulls on more than 8psi than it is to mess with the water stuff. I'm still going to use/build it for Bonneville stuff, but we're talking 3+ miles of wide open out there. For sane street riding it shouldn't be an issue... tune conservatively!

As far as 'drop in' injectors go, you can use other model year injectors, but you only pick up 80-100cc/min with those. If you ever want to see more than 230ish HP you're going to need more than that. The ID's really do 'drop in' easily (see this thread/post for what it looks like on a second gen set of throttle bodies New Turbo Project)... making those spacers is really easy (you can just sand/file/grind down generic spacers from the hardware store if you don't have the tools to make your own). Aside from that, you can make or buy pigtail adapters if you don't want to modify the stock harness. I'd be happy to make you professional PNP adapters at the cost of parts/shipping if you went that route. The first harness I did the ID's on I de-pinned the stock connectors, cut and re-crimped the new connectors for the ID's on and it worked great; no splicing to be had! It's nice that ID supplies the pins and connectors at no cost with their injectors.

A 255 pump is ok, you just have to do something about the fuel filter set up. If you just drop the pump in the stock housing it will eventually end up in tears. You can change the pre-pump filter (sock) all you like, but the actual filter is built into the housing and cannot be serviced. I've built my own housing with a serviceable filter, but it was a pretty big project... using an external pump with a serviceable in-line filter is a much easier way to go. If you absolutely must use the stock housing/filter, put a fuel pressure sensor on that bad boy and build in a failsafe... it's only a matter of time before it causes a failure.

I really like Turbosmart's FPR800 series (I currently run that one on my bike), or Fuel Lab's 535 series (53501).... the Fuel Lab regulator is freaking tiny, and very nicely machined! A 1:1 regulator is what you want... it's tempting to try the adjustable rising rates, but you want to keep fuel pressure as low as you can, and wildly varying fuel pressures (especially high fuel pressures) cause a host of other problems.

That rapid bike stuff honestly looks like a step in the wrong direction. If you are going to stay stock ECU, the PCV has all the capabilities you need to add boost trims (minus a MAP sensor clamp, which you can just check valve), costs a LOT less, and is likely supported/familiar with a LOT more tuners/dyno operators. That being said, a full stand alone is the best choice if you can do it. I switched to a microsquirt first and was thrilled with how well it worked, and then went to a MS3Pro... the control you get and tight packaging is perfect. You'll end up wanting more data and datalogging than most piggy-backs can ever provide, and you're going to start running out of room with a quickness if you plan on keeping it street legal... stand-alones are really the only way to go if you want to be serious about performance or tuning. Now, if you're happy with a weekend wheelie machine that is just fun and not necessarily competitive, the piggyback route is fine.... but I sure as hell wouldn't pay 800+ dollars for that Rapid bike set-up, even if it was backward compatible with the first gen.... I bought my MS3Pro for that price! Shit, if you add on their quickshifter and AFR/closed-loop stuff it lists over 1300!! Nucking Futs.

Attack life... it's going to kill you anyway.

Last edited by SpazOnaZX; 05-10-2018 at 12:58 PM.
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