Boosted 2nd gen build - Page 2 - Kawasaki ZX-10R.net
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post #11 of 20 Old 12-26-2017, 01:47 PM
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Yea, land speed was always a pipe dream, it just fell into my lap this year and I'm running with it. :) I'm learning the hard way that what works on the 'street' isn't what works in competition. You can be mediocre at both, or good at one... take your pick... but that unicorn build that works for every venue just doesn't exist. But before land speed happened I wanted something like what you're after... the low-key freeway pimp that you could ride to work or just take out friday night with no prep.

If you can do the fab work & tuning, you're 90% ahead of the game. Motor building is fairly simple, and there are a lot of shops out there that can get it done if you can't on your own... but any high performance motor builder will know the little tricks. There are quite a few folks on the east coast that can put together a strong motor for sure. With that said, you have to tune a little different for land speed/top speed then you do for drag racing, especially off the pavement... intercooling and heat management become much more important. But it is really a simple motor in the end, and good parts installed properly will make it work... at least up to about 400hp or so in this case. :) The easy blueprint is Pistons/Rods/Valves/Springs/Retainers/Clutch basket... put the best of those in there and the rest is just tuning/electronics. That's about 2K-2.K in parts there, and you can put it together in a shed with a service manual if you have the right tools. You can go crazy with porting/cams/throttle bodies/blahblahblah, but a well-built turbo set-up can almost always make up the difference without much effort.

Nothing wrong with a little ego... that gets you into the learning stage real quick. :) You can still do a lot with minimal amounts of arm & ballast, it is just a lot harder than you would think. In the end, everyone I've ever talked to, including myself, wishes they would have spent that time perfecting a set-up that worked better out of the box, rather than trying over and over to get a set-up not designed for that type of racing to work.... it's just less headache. At the end of the night no one really cares how long your bike is... all they care about is who was out front.

You don't have to go the arm route right away, but just keep in mind that you're probably going to need it to play with the big boys, and you're going to have to re-tune all your boost curves once you change the chassis. You can do the work twice for the experience & there is nothing wrong with that, but if you are in a hurry or have limited funds/time it's just best to start with the finished product. Just my opinion, of course. :)
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Last edited by SpazOnaZX; 12-26-2017 at 01:58 PM.
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post #12 of 20 Old 12-26-2017, 08:38 PM
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Originally Posted by SpazOnaZX View Post
a well-built turbo set-up can almost always make up the difference without much effort.
)
@spaz your bike from like 5 years ago was part of the reason i bought Dsabats old setup! i havent been here in 3 years good to see heavy hitters like yourself are still here sharing knowledge.
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post #13 of 20 Old 12-26-2017, 08:58 PM Thread Starter
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Yea, land speed was always a pipe dream, it just fell into my lap this year and I'm running with it. :) I'm learning the hard way that what works on the 'street' isn't what works in competition. You can be mediocre at both, or good at one... take your pick... but that unicorn build that works for every venue just doesn't exist. But before land speed happened I wanted something like what you're after... the low-key freeway pimp that you could ride to work or just take out friday night with no prep.

If you can do the fab work & tuning, you're 90% ahead of the game. Motor building is fairly simple, and there are a lot of shops out there that can get it done if you can't on your own... but any high performance motor builder will know the little tricks. There are quite a few folks on the east coast that can put together a strong motor for sure. With that said, you have to tune a little different for land speed/top speed then you do for drag racing, especially off the pavement... intercooling and heat management become much more important. But it is really a simple motor in the end, and good parts installed properly will make it work... at least up to about 400hp or so in this case. :) The easy blueprint is Pistons/Rods/Valves/Springs/Retainers/Clutch basket... put the best of those in there and the rest is just tuning/electronics. That's about 2K-2.K in parts there, and you can put it together in a shed with a service manual if you have the right tools. You can go crazy with porting/cams/throttle bodies/blahblahblah, but a well-built turbo set-up can almost always make up the difference without much effort.

Nothing wrong with a little ego... that gets you into the learning stage real quick. :) You can still do a lot with minimal amounts of arm & ballast, it is just a lot harder than you would think. In the end, everyone I've ever talked to, including myself, wishes they would have spent that time perfecting a set-up that worked better out of the box, rather than trying over and over to get a set-up not designed for that type of racing to work.... it's just less headache. At the end of the night no one really cares how long your bike is... all they care about is who was out front.

You don't have to go the arm route right away, but just keep in mind that you're probably going to need it to play with the big boys, and you're going to have to re-tune all your boost curves once you change the chassis. You can do the work twice for the experience & there is nothing wrong with that, but if you are in a hurry or have limited funds/time it's just best to start with the finished product. Just my opinion, of course. :)
Absolutely, I'll probably go with a 4-6 over arm & straps from the beginning to make things a little more manageable. I already have lead in The front axle. If I'm not mistaken you went with a 63 mm from precision turbo? Any particular reasoning behind that other than hp threshold?

Was scrolling through your thread and couldn't find it. I'd like to start ordering parts in the next few weeks or so (selling my Silverado ss among other things I don't drive for some more funds as well). I appreciate all the guidance.

Would you say to build the motor for the turbo or pick the turbo based on the motor or build the motor based on the desired turbo? (If that makes sense) seems like the most sensible starting point and work my way to fueling later.. though that's probably just a dream to work out being that simple

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post #14 of 20 Old 12-26-2017, 10:44 PM
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You have to select your wheel base depending on the center mass location, coefficient of friction between the tire and surface, and the amount of torque that transmission is transferring to the tire. If the wb is too short, you will have no problems getting traction, but your front wheel will be up in the air..........not good. If the wb is too long, your front wheel will stay down........but your tire will spin. Both of those examples aren't good.

You have to build the engine to hold the power that you want, you also have to select correct turbocharger that can supply enough cfm to support that power. Your engine and turbo will also depend on the fuel that you're planning to run.
You can build 2 350hp bikes........1 is going to be a fun street bike and the other is going to be a slug.

Like Spaz said, you can build a fast track bike that won't live on the street.......or you can build a fast street bike that will be a slow track bike.
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post #15 of 20 Old 12-27-2017, 08:06 AM
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Sounds like a badass build! Be fun to see the results of the build.

Just an fyi but my gen 4 with some stupid drag gearing that tops out at 165ish that has basic bolt ons and a flash could keep up and beat some 1khp cars depending on the driver. Turbo is way cooler than a N/A bike but if you're just shooting for beating some 1k hp you could pick up a gen 4, do some headwork and some mr12 and get out on 1k cars for sure and have 2 zx10s lol.
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post #16 of 20 Old 12-27-2017, 09:45 AM
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Exactly what TC said. You can't really overbuild a motor, so go as far in that direction as you can. The above mentioned mods should give you a motor that is capable of 400+ hp if you tune it correctly.... though I can't speculate on how long the transmission will live over that power level. IIRC, Dsabat starting breaking output shafts in the 420+ range.

You pick a turbo based on how much horsepower you want, and WHERE in the RPM band you want it. You can definitely get that one too big or too small... but you have to consider both the compressor side of the turbo and the turbine (exhaust) side.... the compressor is the benchmark for your peak power and efficiency, but the turbine side is going to dictate where the bike makes power and how long it can carry said power before choking up. I'm a fan of Garrett turbos, as you get every bit of information you need right from their catalog and you have a HUGE choice in housings/wheels on both ends of the turbo. I'm actually using an old school turbo on mine.... it's a GT2860RS with a larger .86 A/R turbine housing. The larger turbine housing moves peak torque (and boost threshold) further up in the RPM band, making it a little less street friendly (7K-ish boost threshold at my high altitude in the lower gears). That compressor can support 300ish wheel HP without a problem, maybe more. If I wanted to get into the 400 range safely, Garrett makes an upgraded 'X' compressor wheel in the same frame that could get me there. :)

Turbo choice and sizing is always a compromise. If you want towering HP and peak #'s, you have to give up down low performance. If you want a fun, responsive street motor you have to size down and give up some of those peak numbers. With that said, midrange power is a lot more important than the internet will lead you to believe. ;)
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post #17 of 20 Old 12-27-2017, 09:51 AM
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Originally Posted by moshpete View Post
@spaz your bike from like 5 years ago was part of the reason i bought Dsabats old setup! i havent been here in 3 years good to see heavy hitters like yourself are still here sharing knowledge.
Wassup man! How did his set-up treat you? That was a damn fast bike. I actually bumped into Dean out at El Mirage... quite a nice fellow. I wouldn't call myself a heavy hitter by any stretch, but I'm trying to get there someday. :)
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Last edited by SpazOnaZX; 12-27-2017 at 09:53 AM.
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post #18 of 20 Old 12-31-2017, 09:37 AM Thread Starter
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Sounds like a badass build! Be fun to see the results of the build.

Just an fyi but my gen 4 with some stupid drag gearing that tops out at 165ish that has basic bolt ons and a flash could keep up and beat some 1khp cars depending on the driver. Turbo is way cooler than a N/A bike but if you're just shooting for beating some 1k hp you could pick up a gen 4, do some headwork and some mr12 and get out on 1k cars for sure and have 2 zx10s lol.
I was. Ack and forth on this for a while. I already have a garage full of 2nd gen parts. My biggest deal breaker would be buying another bike and still having to dump more money into this one... why not spend the money on this one and have a one off death missile with 0 miles on it that can't be bought

Just a little update, motor is out; now I'm trying to make a decision on where to take it. Work is picking back after the first of the year so it'll be a little while before I can do much more on it. Took an old set of headers I cracked at the track to cut up and play with if I have down time at work (I can dream, right?)

Still doing some homework on turbos. Looking at the gt2871r / 76 trim .72 AR that's rated for 280-475hp which from my limited understanding this far would give me some wiggle room power wise as well as decent mid range/top end

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post #19 of 20 Old 12-31-2017, 09:45 AM Thread Starter
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You have to select your wheel base depending on the center mass location, coefficient of friction between the tire and surface, and the amount of torque that transmission is transferring to the tire. If the wb is too short, you will have no problems getting traction, but your front wheel will be up in the air..........not good. If the wb is too long, your front wheel will stay down........but your tire will spin. Both of those examples aren't good.

You have to build the engine to hold the power that you want, you also have to select correct turbocharger that can supply enough cfm to support that power. Your engine and turbo will also depend on the fuel that you're planning to run.
You can build 2 350hp bikes........1 is going to be a fun street bike and the other is going to be a slug.

Like Spaz said, you can build a fast track bike that won't live on the street.......or you can build a fast street bike that will be a slow track bike.
Interesting point. I've been looking at the formula/ method to finding this, it's never been something I've put much thought into short of straps and as much ballast on the front end as possible for swb. If/when I buy arm this will definitely be a priority. Power is no good if it doesn't make it to tthe ground.

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post #20 of 20 Old 12-31-2017, 10:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Doped2ndgen View Post
Still doing some homework on turbos. Looking at the gt2871r / 76 trim .72 AR that's rated for 280-475hp which from my limited understanding this far would give me some wiggle room power wise as well as decent mid range/top end

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That's a sensible choice for a turbo that is biased for high-rpm performance in a 1K streetbike.... they are rather plentiful and (relatively) inexpensive to boot. It will be a bit of a late spooler on a reduced compression motor... I'd guess in the 7-8K range in first gear depending on how well it's built. The threshold will come down a bit as you get more load in it (IE more speed).

Attack life... it's going to kill you anyway.
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